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Home » Rockies » Montana » Western Montana » Missoula » My Dog in a Trap on Thanksgiving Day
It's a walk I've taken hundreds of times, a trail that runs alongside the Big Flat irrigation ditch near the confluence of the Bitterroot and Clark Fork rivers. My nephew, in his first year at college in Portland, is here for Thanksgiving, and we were wandering along the riverbank just off the trail, with our two dogs nosing about nearby. Suddenly there was an odd "thump" followed by frantic yelping. My dog Rontu, a sweet and shy Norwegian Elkhound, had gotten caught in a leg-hold trap.

My Dog in a Trap on Thanksgiving Day

It’s a walk I’ve taken hundreds of times, a trail that runs alongside the Big Flat irrigation ditch near the confluence of the Bitterroot and Clark Fork rivers. My nephew, in his first year at college in Portland, is here for Thanksgiving, and we were wandering along the riverbank just off the trail, with our two dogs nosing about nearby. Suddenly there was an odd “thump” followed by frantic yelping. My dog Rontu, a sweet and shy Norwegian Elkhound, had gotten caught in a leg-hold trap.

I quickly realized that I knew nothing about such traps and didn’t immediately know how to release it. Rontu was thrashing around hysterically, biting the trap and biting my hands as I tried to hold him still so I could see how to open it. I told my nephew to go get help, as I figured at a minimum we’d be dealing with a broken leg.

After a couple of minutes I managed to calm the dog down, and I stared at the trap for a bit and figured out how the mechanism worked. I released it, and quickly carried the dog the short distance from the thicket to the trail. I put him down, and he ran off towards home. Remarkably, he seems to have no broken bones, only a serious sprain and an ugly memory.

It could easily have been much worse. If it had been our other dog, a little Schnauzer, who knows what would have happened. If Rontu had stuck his nose in the trap, rather than his foot, he’d be in bad shape indeed. And who on earth would put a trap in a spot that’s frequented not just by dogs and horses, but by people too? It wouldn’t have been a stretch for one of our kids to have stepped in it.

After we’d gotten back to the house and made sure Rontu was okay, we returned to the scene to investigate. We found the trap – and, incredibly, it had already been re-set. It was no more than 10 feet from the trail, and about 10 feet from the river, below the high-water mark. It was probably set for a beaver, or maybe a coyote, but there was no tag or identification on the trap. It’s not entirely clear whether the piece of ground in question belongs to our homeowners association or to the property owner next door, but hopefully I’ll be finding out more about that soon.

There’s a fierce debate about trapping in Montana, and especially whether it should be permitted on public lands. Honestly it is not an argument I have paid a lot of attention to one way or the other.

I will, however, say this: whatever the broader legal or ethical or moral issues, whoever set that trap definitely violated the one rule that’s crucial to any and all accommodations about how we inhabit the outdoors. That is, don’t be an asshole.

You don’t need to a dog-lover, or a PETA member, or even unappreciative of Montana traditions to believe that setting leg-hold traps next to trails frequented by people and their pets is nasty, selfish behavior. In this case it was almost certainly illegal too, as traps are required to have identification, and contrary to what some people seem to think the stream-access law does not allow trapping below the high-water mark unless you have permission of the landowner.

It’s a horrible shock to see your dog caught in a trap, and at a minimum I’d suggest dog-owners need to be sure they know how to release them. What the appropriate rules are for trapping is a question I’ll leave for another day.

About Jonathan Weber

Comments

  1. john says:

    you broke the law when you trespassed.

  2. Jonathan Weber says:

    I wasn’t trespassing. I was just telling my nephew how I was sure that the first comments on this would be people telling me how it was my fault. Ridiculous. Think for just a second before you write John.

  3. Jon Cheever says:

    Dogs on public hiking trails in Montana are at risk of falling victim to body-gripping traps where they may be tortured for hours or days—struggling to be free of the long-drawn-out pain inflicted on them by the traps. And because traps and snares do not discriminate, they jeopardize any animal that encounters them—including threatened and endangered species.

    What folly for us to allow trapping anywhere in Montana, but especially in public areas near trails where domestic dogs can easily fall prey to the traps. There is no trap check requirement in Montana. Trappers may not check their traps for days at a time. And traps can be set within 100 yards of a public trailhead. Your dog could easily run that distance in a few seconds, and be trapped within minutes of you leaving your car for a hike.

    I really like the Footloose Montana group and what they’re doing to change our cruel trapping regulations in Montana—www.footloosemontana.org

    -Jon Cheever

  4. Mel says:

    Jonathan,
    Let me know if you want help staking out the unmarked traps to identify the poacher and turn his ass in.

  5. JB says:

    Sorry Jonathan but I’d say you faked that.

    The trap is brand new out of the box, not dyed or waxed.

    And as such, had it been set and exposed to the elements for even a few hours it would show signs of it. Particularly on the pan and the edges, which appear pristine.

    Not buying your story.

    Animal rights types have a long and documented history of engaging in such behavior to advance their cause.

  6. horst says:

    Asking RightWingCrazies to think is a very tall order, Jonathan.

  7. Jonathan Weber says:

    Mel, I may take you up on that, thanks. JB, it’s honestly pretty weird that you’d think I’d fake such a thing. Even if you had some reason to think I was an extremist animal rights activist – and being upset about your dog in a trap doesn’t exactly put you in that category – I have a 25-year, very public record as a journalist and it’s silly to think I would suddenly start inventing stories.

  8. Larry Kralj, Environmental Rangers! says:

    HEY, any good hiker will tresspass! I do it all the time. I take the Woody Guthrie approach to hiking. And yes, I had a Black Lab get caught in a muskrat trap one time. It was quite interesting trying to get him out. I was tresspassing when my dog got caught. But the trappers really shouldn’t put these things in areas frequented by hikers and animals. That’s stupid.

  9. Anja Heister says:

    Jonathan,

    I’m glad to hear that your dog survived the trap incident as some of our Footloose Montana members have not been so lucky — they’ve lost their dog to a snare or a Conibear (a trap designed to break an animal’s spine).

    You may know that there currently is an initiative to end recreational and commercial trapping on public lands — the Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Initiative. Call (406) 546-9945 for more information on how to sign the petition and/or help with signature gathering. It’s now or never to put an end on trapping for fun!

  10. Hawk says:

    So journalists should be considered credible, let me see, having researched journalists for 35 years now I am slightly amused by them and influenced not at all by them..

    Journalistic Research, a process whereby the journalist cites other journalists who site leftist academicians, and journalists, as evidence of facts…

    My definition of journalists is people who say things they know to be wrong on the mistaken assumption that if the lies are repeated often enough the people will come to accept them as truth.

    “There is no such thing, at this date of the world’s history, in America, as an independent press. You know it and I know it.

    “There is not one of you who dares to write your honest opinions, and if you did, you know beforehand that it would never appear in print. I am paid weekly for keeping my honest opinion out of the paper I am connected with. Others of you are paid similar salaries for similar things, and any of you who would be so foolish as to write honest opinions would be out on the streets looking for another job. If I allowed my honest opinions to appear in one issue of my paper, before twenty-four hours my occupation would be gone.

    “The business of the journalists is to destroy the truth, to lie outright, to pervert, to vilify, to fawn at the feet of mammon, and to sell his country and his race for his daily bread. You know it and I know it, and what folly is this toasting an independent press?

    “We are the tools and vassals of rich men behind the scenes. We are the jumping jacks, they pull the strings and we dance. Our talents, our possibilities and our lives are all the property of other men. We are intellectual prostitutes.” .” – John Swinton (former Chief of Staff for New York Times) 1880 speech.

    Using your journalism “integrity” as and example of honesty is stupid. As well you should have reset the trap, stuck a stick in it, and then observed it until the person who left it there came for it.. AND then released the article once you had verified the fact it was set up by others…

    Now the person will retrieve it in the dark, because they probably can read..

    And on a final note journalism has not improved in integrity since 1880..

  11. Jonathan Weber says:

    Wait, I should have lay in wait to verify that it was set by someone else? Prove to myself that I didn’t fake it? That’s funny.

  12. Pronghorn says:

    No animal–domestic or wild–should be made to suffer and die for the brute sport of trapping. Please support I-160 for trap-free public lands for people, pets, and wildlife.

  13. Jonathan Weber says:

    Also, if you look more closely at the picture you’ll see that there is in fact some rust on the trap.

    Any responsible trapper would share my indignation at an illegal trap set next to a riverside trail frequented by people. It’s interesting how eager some people are to blame the messenger and the victim, and even event scenarios and allegations out of thin air, rather than acknowledge bad behavior and its implications.

  14. NOFREEDM says:

    My dog also got caught in a leghold trap. Luckily I was right beside him when it happened. It was an underwater trap (5or 6 of them) that were set in a pond that is surrounded by houses, right in my back yard in the CITY LIMITS of Kalispell. Yes it was authorized by the homeowner who decided she didn’t like muskrats making thier homes in HER bank, so she hired this guy to come and trap them. She did not NOTIFY any other homeowner on the pond and neither did he. There was no sign and so when I let my dogs out to roam the edge as I do every day, I did not know they were there! I feed ducks in this pond. There are now nearly 100 ducks that come to eat. If these traps were here now we would have a lot of dead ducks! But that’s not the real point, the real point is that these animals were trapped UNDERWATER in order to DROWN THEM. The animals in the wilderness that are trapped are left for days and sometimes they chew off their own feet to get out. If you really want to know how bad it is go to any trapping site and look at their trophy pictures. They love to show off! If you want to see it in action, go to youtube, there are many sites that will show you live animals struggling in these traps. If you really want to help go to FOOTLOOSEMONTANA.ORG and get educated. Those of you that think this is fake are trying to find an excuse to cover your own love of this archaic form of hunting in Montana. Come out of your caves boys and show yourselves. I sure didn’t fake the traps set in my pond and i will tell you at 68 years old it wasn’t easy for me to get it off my schnauser’s foot!

  15. Zach,11 years old says:

    hi im Jonathan Weber’s son i have proof that our dog got stuck in that trap.My dog Rontu’s foot is very swollen, and my dad does not lie.I also play down by the river every summer,what would of happended if it was my foot that got stuck in that trap?

  16. JB says:

    “I have a 25-year, very public record as a journalist and it’s silly to think I would suddenly start inventing stories.”

    Why not when it has happened with other journalists ? I’ve seen it firsthand.

    Jonathan, the trap is too clean to have been set. I have 35 years experience both in the field and in policy forums. I can see that just from the condition of the trap that it wasn’t in use by a trapper. It has not been treated nor is there any residue on it at all, such as dirt.

    Dogs do get caught incidentally, but I’m not buying your story.

    In fact I’d recommend an investigation from the MT DNR.

  17. Michelle Phillips says:

    Well JB and John (with an H) have just ruined Montana for me. Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you sickos? Jonathan and Zach, I’m very sorry that your dog had to suffer and now you have to entertain the indignity of being accused of lying – something only a lowlife would imagine. Gross.

  18. Michelle Phillips says:

    I forgot to mention that Hawk must be suffering from PTSD (post-turkey senility disorder). Where did that rant come from and who cares what you think about journalism? And on a final note, try proofreading your post – it might help garner some credibility for your case but it’s unlikely.

  19. Hawk says:

    This is a staged event, if not by the victim, then by and anti trapping person with and agenda. But go ahead and automatically blame trapping and trappers… That fits the agenda..

  20. Jim Lang says:

    John and JB – your comments stagger the imagination. Reality once again reveals a level of idiocy and heartlessness that I would not have believed in had I not witnessed it myself.

  21. Bill Taylor says:

    I am admitting up front that I have an agenda. I am a conservative [Republican] Californian who also happens to the the father-in-law of Jonathan and the grandfather of Zach. I am amazed at the callous ignorance of a couple of you who would accuse Jonathan of staging this event. I was on the phone with my daughter shortly after the event when she described it to me and was shocked that someone would set a trap in an area that is frequently and legally visited by local residents as well as domestic animals. This trap was clearly NOT placed on the private property of an individual but on land that was controlled by a homeowners association [to which Jonathan is a member] or by the state of Montana. It was located between the path and the river.

    Then to have the trap RE-SET within minutes of the incident would strike me as somewhat sinister. Yes, sinister as in EVIL. I would hope that the person responsible would come to his senses and remove such dangers from the area.

    Bill Taylor

  22. NOFREEDM says:

    So to all of you knuckledraggers that believe this journalist and his child are lying, perhaps you should watch the following REAL VIDEO of what is REALLY happening in this state. Warning it is not for the faint hearted, I don’t know Hawk, JB and John if you can take this, although knowing what you are you would probably revel in it:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU-KnolBrgw&feature=related

  23. Hawk says:

    Nice flick, I witnessed far more brutal bloody things take place on this earth than that, it is called wars perpetrated upon humans by your tax dollars in support of a government you believe is infallible.

    Why don’t you brave journalists do and article about this nations let it burn policy, and how many of these same creatures in the thousands die by fire. Including birds, ungulates, predators, and all the little creatures, how about the bugs and snakes..

    Environmentalism’s agenda has dirty hands as well…

    How about ski mountains, and trails, all those trees chopped down so people can slide on the ice for self gratifying entertainment. All those little creatures lost their nests and hide outs, oh the terror…

    I worked special operations for 12 years.. If I wanted to attack and activity by people, I would take up that activity, and punch it in the mouth every chance I could..

    Civilians are so easy to manipulate.

    This blog is a soft attack against and activity.

  24. JB says:

    “I am amazed at the callous ignorance of a couple of you who would accuse Jonathan of staging this event”

    The trap shows no evidence of being used in a set or having made a capture.

    There’s is no soil on the trap, particularly not on the pan or the levers.

    It appears to be a new trap used for a photo op.

  25. Coyote Trapper says:

    JB and Hawk-you are right on!!! This is a faked story. Interesting how it is so very timely with the footloose initiative. What a joke this Weber is, probably a ‘member’ himself!! Heck, he probably leaves all of the supportive comments himself, just with a different name, to give the impression that people support his B.S.

  26. Jim Lang says:

    ^^^ I think it’s time for you to go back on your meds.

  27. jed says:

    Any government is more reliable than most individuals, hawk.

  28. Karen says:

    In the spirit of full disclosure – I am Jonathan’s wife. I usually have a pretty god sense of humor but the accusation that we would actually make this up staggers the imagination.

    For those of you who cant see rust on the trap I urge you to put your glasses on and take another look. Believe what you wish but realize that you undermine your own agenda by making such crazy and irresponsible statements.

    While I fundamentally disagree with trapping, I absolutely support the right of responsible trappers to continue their tradition. Extremists exist on both sides of the issue – but my guess is that the vast majority of people – both trappers and hikers alike would appreciate some mutual understanding and respect.

    My dog cant read. What about a sign or a brightly colored flag to give notice to those who use the land that traps are in the area? As a trapper I would be outraged if one of my fellow hunters showed such grave disrespect for the rights of others.

    We were not trespassing and in fact were opposed to the recent installation of gates and private property signs installed by the homeowners association. Incidents like these only support the argument of those who wish to close off private land to others.

    We have informed the authorities and for anyone with the time and paranoia to investigate I imagine there is a record of our report….

  29. Shannon. says:

    I’m Shannon, Jonathan’s daughter.
    I find it funny that some of you, would believe that a little boy (My brother) and a grown man, would make something like this up.
    If you looked closely enough, you would see that the trap clearly has rust marks on it. What person would waste time to buy a trap, just so they could take a picture and write a article about it?
    I find it low, rude, and disrespectful to put something up like that.
    I’m 16 and I have more common sense.
    Think before you speak.

  30. Tom K says:

    Jonathan,
    I would suggest going to the next homeowners association metting and discussing putting up no trapping signs as well as no hunting signs.
    Not everyone has a whole lot of common sense.
    You were lucky your dog wasn’t seriously hurt. I wouldn’t wait for one of your kids to catch a stray bullet from some fool shooting at a bird or something.

  31. Hawk says:

    ” Any government is more reliable than most individuals, hawk.”

    How the hell would you know ? You been living in the u.s. corporation of depends for your lifetime.. This nation was built on Individuality and Capitalism, which has been sabotaged by environmentalism and corporatism…

    Then what do the little sheople do, they curse their own Liberty. Damn the individualists and honest capitalism…

    Who gains by the loss of Liberty-Individuality, power hungry governments do..

    You might give the Declaration of Independence another shot jed…

    Karl wrote the Manifesto of Dependence, seems you are confused..

  32. Hawk Trapper says:

    Maybe we should let Hawk run the country. He seems like a perfectly reasonable guy….

  33. Mo Villa says:

    I would think that most trappers would be appalled by this story. Appalled that some irresponsible individual would set a trap dangerously close to a trail frequented by children and dogs. This individual is the one giving trappers a bad name. Of course, your idioctic ramblings aren’t quite helping your cause either, Coyote Trapper.
    PS. By your reasoning, if “Weber” is leaving all the supporting comments himself, he also must be writing the opposing comments just to get people all stirred up and keep the story alive. It would be somewhat reassuring to think that you don’t actually exist.

  34. Michelle Phillips says:

    I am only disappointed that this bog provided JB, John, and Hawk with a forum to release their idiotic vitriol. If only they would now return to trimming their ear and nose hair with a straight razor (which I assume is what they were doing before they got wind of this opportunity). Instead, I will discontinue being notified of any new comments on this thread so I can return to my life and resume believing that most humans are rational, intelligent, and civilized beings. This has forever tainted my opinion of trappers and hunters… bored, silly fools. Adios.

  35. Hawk says:

    Michelle Phillips, pretty damn pathetic blaming others for and existing opinion you already owned.. People like you wish to be heard, and force your dogma upon others who need shut up and suck up to your agenda… The new age u.s. corporate serf way..

  36. Michelle Phillips says:

    Ha ha haaa! That’s funny! I’ll let your comment speak for itself, thanks. Apparently I can’t get this thing to stop notifying me of new comments…

  37. kit carson says:

    I’m a 4th genaration montana and i’ll set traps anywheres i want. I dont give a dam if I catch a dog a kid or anything else.Dont tell me.

    So what if its my right So animals suffer so what?

  38. NOFREEDM says:

    Karen, Jonathan and kids…don’t be alarmed by the idiots on this blog that must respond that this is a made up story. You have to understand the mentality of trappers. They have none. All they can do is venomously strike out at anything that threatens what they consider their RIGHT to trap because it is a Montana TRADITION. They are as mentally deficient as were the slave owners of history. We at “Montanans For Trap Free Public Lands” will be ending their reign next year and they are very afraid and should be. Until MY DOG was caught in a trap right outside my back gate, I had no understanding of what “trapping” meant. Then after research, I realized how huge this “sport” is and how much MONEY THEY MAKE off these animals. Its all on line and you can look it up easily. Two ways we will stop you…(1) WE WILL PASS I-160
    (2) WOMEN WILL STOP BUYING ANY FUR PRODUCT!
    You can COUNT ON IT!!!
    If anyone reading this wants to help call the number that Anja has put up(above) and sign our petition! Join us and get more signatures, WE NEED YOUR HELP!!! We MUST stop trapping on PUBLIC LANDS EVERYWHERE IN MONTANA!
    Tell your friends and tell them to tell their friends and sign the petitions. HELP US STOP THIS NOW!!! Copy this and send it to everybody you know…get your hunter friends involved. These traps are taking out deer and elk too, don’t kid yourselves. Every animal in the wild is a target! Go to the Footloose site and get educated!

  39. NOFREEDM says:

    Kit, looks like you and Hawk were hatched out of the same egg. When this law passes, and it will, you best be movin on and find yourself a new cave!

  40. Tom K says:

    Kit Carson and NOFREEDM sound like a couple of schoolyard bullies intent on butting heads.
    Ther’s nothing wrong with making a little extra money trapping if your not to lazy to check your traps every morning and every evening, but who is dumb enough to trap in a residential area?

  41. Luke says:

    As with all of the other family members who have commented on this thread, full disclosure right up front: I am Jonathan’s nephew mentioned in his article. To those of you who claim this story was fabricated, you don’t know Jonathan. I do, and I know that inventing any story or event to serve his own political agenda is something so far outside the realm of possibility that to accuse him of it is is a laughable. If you don’t want to take my word for it that Rontu was, in fact, caught in a trap (and, for the record, he was) or my assurances of Jonathan’s journalistic integrity, find any instance in his career where he stretched the truth. I’ll save you the time; you won’t find one.

    I’m not even going to dignify the accusations that the photo was staged with any response. I’ll let the clearly evident patches of rust and dirt and grass on the trap speak for themselves.

    I’ll wrap up with a comment on what I took from this whole experience. Whatever side of the issue you’re on, it comes down to respect, and whatever side you are on it should be clear that whoever placed this trap showed absolutely no respect for anyone who lives in the area or regularly uses the trail. This is even assuming it was legally placed, which at this point seems dubious. I’m from New York, so I really have no strong opinion either way. I do, however, have a very strong feeling of outrage at, to borrow Jonathan’s word, whatever asshole put that trap there. It was an ridiculous show of disrespect, and that’s what people should take from this.

  42. Coyote Trapper says:

    Why is it that a person’s perceived right to run their disobedient dogs on public land is somehow greater than a trapper’s perceived right to trap. Maybe we should be passing legislation that requires all dogs to be leashed on public lands because they interfere with trapping. If you look at is realistically, most of these dogs are deer chasing, bunny killing, cross eyed inbred pooches that spend most of their time growling at kids at public trail heads, maiming wildlife, and filling trails with piles of steaming crap (which the owners refuse to pick up’. People seem to think that their dog has zero ecological impact because their name is ‘Peaches’.

    This bogus story of ‘my dog getting caught in some mean trappers trap’ is a big bunch of poo. Then, to a humorous degree, I’ll get my ‘Republican conservative pappy and my wife and kids to post that ‘Hey, this actually happened to Peaches’ is a poor attempt to cover up the real agenda. These people not only want to stop responsible trapping on public lands but also on private lands and as a follow up they intend to stop all hunting. They start small with trapping on public lands but make no mistake these ‘members’ are out to take your rights to hunt and fish as well!!! Do you read me Ben?

  43. Hawk says:

    ” who is dumb enough to trap in a residential area”

    Someone from footloose is.

    I love preconceived notions and blame, I don’t trap. A non trapper placed the device in this location..

    Now I better keep and (eye) on my Broccoli pie and fried egg plant…

  44. Luke says:

    Also, since this apparently needs to be said, this was not a case of a “disobedient dog on public land.” This was between the the low and high water marks, so at the most there’s an easement, and it is possible the land was owned by the homeowners association — in which case the trap was set illegally. Furthermore, the dog wasn’t running wild through the woods chasing deer. It was walking with us. Also, for the record, I do exist, and I am writing what I think and believe and know, not what Jonathan wants me to.

  45. Coyote Trapper says:

    To all hunters, trappers, fishermen and women, ranchers, farmers, school teachers, small business owners, guides, outfitters, meat processors, sporting good retailers, firearm and bow manufacturers, Montana based boot and shoe manufacturers, hardware stores, restaurants and hotels, gas stations, grocery stores, MT FWP, and the list goes on and on…..be warned. These ‘member’ want to put you out of business…because you support or are a hunter, trapper, logger or miner!!!

  46. Anne says:

    jonathan– so sorry to hear about this and the ridiculous accusations that have stemmed from it. give rontu some love from me.

  47. Mo Villa says:

    Wow Coyote Trapper…ever hear of the slippery slope argument?
    Please read the article again (or for the first time)
    This article wasn’t written to “take out your rights to hunt and fish.” It was written to discuss the lack of respect that particular trapper had for the individuals that use the trail.

    I can’t believe that you continue to insist that this incident was made up. Perhaps you’d like to pay the vet bill?

  48. Kit Carson says:

    so what if we kill anamuls. thats why god put them here

  49. Zach says:

    I trapped a little when I was a kid. I still hunt and fish, but I’ll never trap again. I don’t have enough time to set and check trap lines that are well away from trails, and setting traps anywhere that people and pets frequent is indefensible.

  50. Bruce says:

    The big mistake you made was taking a picture of the trap. It certainly looks staged but if not the dog wasn’t hurt beyond a sore foot so why the big deal. It just seems fishy.
    As for the worry of a child getting caught that’s just ludicrous if you ever saw a trap or where it might be set.
    Also the same old lines of the animal suffering for days have been trotted out. Well if this is true the dog sure wouldn’t have been in the trap long as apparently the trapper checks his or her traps on an hourly basis. Otherwise it wouldn’t have been reset.

  51. Coyote Trapper says:

    Kit Carson-God has nothing to do with it.

    Mo Villa-Hidden agenda…starts small with public land trapping and ends big with anti-hunting/fishing. Read my posts. This is a fabricated attempt by a ‘member’ to conjure sympathy prior to the footloose initiative hitting the poles. Let me guess…Mo Villa are you poor Johnathan’s niece that is just writing in to defend your valiant uncle?

    Realize this Montana…these ‘Members’ are looking to stop you from ever trapping, fishing, or hunting again. They try to make cases and conjure sympathetic support by fabricating stories on small controversial issues such as ‘Peach got caught in a mean trappers trap’ so they can divide trappers from the rest of MT sportsmen and women. If they succeed, next they go after bow hunter because they wound more animals than do trappers. So they try to separate bow hunters from the rest of the sporting community with BS stories of how ‘Peaches got shot by a mean old bow hunter dressed in camo’!!! Next it is the muzzleloaders or shotgunners.

    These ‘members’ know better than to attack the sporting community as a whole so they try to divide us. Support each other is what I say to MT sportsmen and women. Vote no!!!

  52. Hawk says:

    Comments 2 and 9 are from footloose fans…fair is fair, if this thread is good enough for them it is good enough for all.. The thread is about and accident and moron putting this trap in a bad place, but footloose saw fit to advertise in this thread did they not, they changed the direction of the topic…Hijacked it for their self gain..

  53. Mo Villa says:

    sorry to disappoint Coyote Trapper…I’m no relation to the author.

  54. Kit Carson says:

    coyote trapper
    god has plenty to do with it. your a discrace to all us trappers and your trying to divide us. your not a real trapper. your a want a be.

  55. Celia Bell says:

    I find it difficult to believe the vehement accusations against a person whose dog was caught in a trap. It reminds me a little of a case in Houston where I lived some years ago with a much more tragic outcome. A 3 year old child was accidentally killed on her own patio near a wooded area by a stray bullet from a hunter who was hunting very close to that residential area. The hunter may have been within his legal rights to hunt there but the child was dead. In my opinion such behavior is irresponsible to the point of posing a danger to society.

  56. mitch says:

    Several years ago there was a dog killed here in the Kalispell area when it was out walking the hills with it’s two people. There was mention of someone called Hawk who’d set those traps. Hmmmmmm, same Hawk?

    I’ve heard of the traps that were set in the s. Kalispell area also. What a disgusting hobby. Thanks for the information and phone # for the initiative. I will definately call them, and pass this # on.

  57. we know you're out there says:

    because we destroy every trap we find. If we ever meet up with you or your houndsman cousin, chasing cats with GPS units, (that one’s got a purty mouth) you will be very unpleasantly surprised. Oh wait, it’s “illegal” to speak to hunters or trappers, they all cry harassment, yuh. What a great bunch, propped up by self serving laws pushed through the legislature.
    Forest terrorism, that’s exactly what this behavior is. Hey we’re fighting fanatics just like you boys overseas!
    Don’t go off getting whiny about the violent lefties or whatever you learned on Pox News. You know Obama’s probably behind this anyway.
    Your very presence in the forest is a great danger to all other users, watch out. You’ve pissed off WAY too many others.

  58. Hawk says:

    I suppose you could call these Savages your government had slaughtered disgusting users of the wild lands as well, all those nasty hobbies they used to survive to feed and clothe themselves, any type of true freedom and American Heritage must be destroyed with lies by the communists.. It has always been this way, no doubt the city people in the towns of America appreciated the genocide of Native Americans, environ-“mentalists” are the same today… Just remember this, once you take freedoms from others, your turn is just around the corner, the hikers, mountain bikers, skiers, ski skaters, weekend city people campers, etc. etc. They don’t impact the wild lands and creatures at all do they? There all just perfect little Ghia worshipers, un-huh, keep believing that, we’ll see you defending your right to access wilderness one fine day…These movements historically end in total chaos, WHY ? Because finally each group has been so restricted the people explode into revolts.. Environmentalism was used by Stalin, Lenin, Trotsky, Hitler, Mao, and now Agenda 21 straight out the Club of Rome, using their United Nations, to control Rome on the Potomac… The Environmentalist movement has killed millions, and it will end up killing a third of the worlds population. By Design..

    ” The Indian [was thought] as less than human and worthy only of extermination. We did shoot down defenseless men, and women and children at places like Camp Grant, Sand Creek, and Wounded Knee. We did feed strychnine to red warriors. We did set whole villages of people out naked to freeze in the iron cold of Montana winters. And we did confine thousands in what amounted to concentration camps. Wellman, The Indian Wars of the West, 1934″ WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND.. It just takes governments longer to do it these days…

    Today gatherer harvester humans are considered to be less than human.. Because they trap, hunt and fish.. While those “Advanced Degrees” and technologically University trained and “Superior Intellects” frown down their long noses at them… To funny..

    Nothing ever changes.. Society self destructs and takes the real naturalists down with them… See real history, not your government public indoctrination tainted versions..

    To who ever set up this little trap sequence to sabotage others, nice try.. Liars win in America today..

  59. Jonathan Weber says:

    Several of the alleged trappers on this thread, with their preposterous accusations against me and made-up conspiracy theories, are doing an outstanding job of promoting the anti-trapping cause. Anyone without a stake in this who looked at this thread would readily conclude that trappers are a bunch of lunatic paranoids and sociopaths. So if that is the intent, nice job.

    i continue to await comment from the Trappers Association or other trapping defenders that will acknowledge the obvious – traps in places that are frequented by people and pets are not appropriate. And/ or, perhaps some kind of notification system so that people know traps are in the area? Why can’t we talk about solutions?

    The point of sharing the story was to raise awareness of the issue, because I think most people are not aware that their dog could be caught in a trap and would not know what to do if it happened. I’m not against trapping per se, though this thread may be convincing me otherwise.

    I hope we can have a conversation about these issues. If not, we’re going to shut the thread down.

  60. NOFREEDM says:

    Since you are one of those “part time” trappers Tom K. “to make a little extra money” do you honestly believe that makes you ok? You have said what no one else on here has said, its all about money! As to this trap being a fake, again you just need excuses to try to make people believe that trappers are “responsible” people and would never do anything like that. Well they would and they do. I should have pulled out every one of those traps I found (my dog found the hard way) but I didn’t. I sure will now. For those of you that don’t know it, all members of the Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks are trappers! Does that tell you something about corrupt politics? Sure does me. As to our dogs running free on public lands, we have the law on our side. As long as the owner has “control” verbally or on leash we are legal. I would like a little honesty here, how many dogs, deer and elk are caught in your traps every year guys. You won’t tell will you. You don’t want anyone to know that your traps catch big game too. And if you think children haven’t been trapped, you are dead wrong there too. Go to Footloose and read, if you can. If you are illierate then I can understand your reticence. Some of you appear to be. We are not after hunters or fishermen. We are after inhumane trapping. That is our agenda and those of you attempting to put the fear of God into hunters and fishermen, your excuses do not hold water. If anything, hunters and fishermen should be scared to death to walk on public lands for fear they will end up in your traps! If you think no trapping signs work, they don’t. There is no homeowners association where I live, there was no where for me to go to stop this horrible thing from continuing. With the passage of this law there will be. It is sad that you cannot CHOOSE to stop trapping on your own. How can you look at what your have done to that animal and look in the mirror. Do any of you pray? How can you and still go out and look at what you have done to these animals. I would ask you to face your Maker the next time you check your traps, maybe you will see what you have done and stop. I really do pray for that to happen by your own free will.

  61. NOFREEDM says:

    Oh and by the way, look at the size of that trap. Do you think it would fit a childs foot? I do!!!

  62. mitch says:

    So tell me……….what is the difference between a land mine and a trap? Why would you feel your so-called rights to trap are more important than someone’s safety, or the loss of a family pet? Selfishness? Greed? It’s all about the me me me, right? “To hell with someone else as long as I get what I want.”

    I think the practice of trapping and hunting will end, but it will not end because of someone sitting in Washington DC, or because of those of us who are against the use of guns by irresponsible, uneducated and inexperienced fools. A couple of days ago a slob shot a deer at the intersection or Conrad Drive and Willow Glen. Didn’t hear yet if they caught him, but they did get a good description of his big red truck.

    This will be why you will lose your “hunting/trapping rights”. When you know of incidents like this, and those who have committed these acts and do not turn them in, well, you’re aiding them in ending your sport.

  63. Hawk says:

    Did you get that folks,

    Footloose can advertise here, and that is ok. Any defense of a centuries old practice is considered to be lunatic paranoids and sociopaths.

    Then “American” Mr. Weber threatens censor, even offers to take his ball and go home because he don’t like the game…

  64. Coyote Trapper says:

    Mr. Weber,

    Why are you removing individual’s posts from this thread? Several posts have disappeared and interestingly enough they are ones which are not supportive of you. Interesting to say the least. Are you going to remove this post as well?

    It is difficult to talk solutions over a staged event. You want real dialog, next time present a real story. You are a footloose member and supporter who fabricated a story for the political purpose of conjuring support for the public land trapping ban initiative. Real solutions come from real people who present real information.

  65. NOFREEDM says:

    Footloose is not advertising here, I recommend that site for education. But I AM ADVERTISING HERE! I am advertising “MONTANANS FOR TRAP FREE PUBLIC LANDS”! I am advertising for help to fight the inhumane treatment of Montana’s wild and domestic animals. I am thankful for people like Mitch and Jonathan who have come forward announcing their own horror of this horrible sport. Thank you Mitch for sharing about the deer, my sister lives near there and I bet she was incredibly mad when she heard about it. As to Hawk…you are a perfect example of the mentality we do not need in this country. You are a dangerous man. You need help.

  66. Jonathan Weber says:

    Yes, several posts were removed as they were clear falsehoods that were posted under different names from the same computer.

    The idea that the event was staged is exactly what I am referring to above – lunatic, paranoid conspiracy theory. If you want to argue the issues, great. But if you start by calling me a fraud, well, hard to have a conversation around that.

    By the way, how about some real names here from people who are so eager to slander me?

  67. Coyote Trapper says:

    My name is William Goat but my friends call me ‘Billy’.

    Hardy har…

  68. NOFREEDM says:

    And here for people that have never read about the money for these skins, is a site that makes it very clear. Oh and by the way, coyote trapper, you must be in trouble right now selling your skins huh?

    http://trappingtoday.com/index.php/category/fur-prices/

  69. mitch says:

    hmmm, my question must have been overlooked, as I never did see an answer.

    Big beautiful dog, out on a walk on a perfect Flathead Valley day with it’s two companion people. Dog died a horrible death before his people could get him free.

    Does that ring a bell Hawk?

  70. Gina says:

    I hope your sweet little dog has healed her terror moment by eating a delicious Thanksgiving meal. In 1976 the day after Christmas my beautiful young Siberian Husky was shot and killed by a rancher in Maryland. I had allowed Gandalf to run free beyond my sight as we walked by a pastorial hill I was completely familiar with. My lesson here was…there are reasons for leash laws. I think if we love our animals it is important to realize that it is for their safety not our inconvenience that leash laws have been created. As for the traps…I am so glad that your dog trusted you to rescue it from that awful terror.

  71. Hawk says:

    No bells, do you have links to this tale so I can verify it..

    I have not set foot in Montana since the early 1980s. I also said here I don’t trap. I rarely hunt any more. I live on the edge of the Frank Church Wilderness.

    I have a friend who drives a very nice car, a jaguar, over to the Sun valley area, he is and animal rights activist, I am amused by him.. His car has and all plush leather interior…

    Look around your house and personal belongings Mitch, own any leather articles, how about those shoes.. How many of your items are made from oil ? How many birds have been killed by your car while traveling down the roads… Even found one your grill…

    Ringing any bells there Mitch..

  72. mitch says:

    http://www.hcn.org/issues/152/4917 There ya go, Hawk, verify all ya want. Your friend does not interest me, as you may only be catagorizing those you feel threatened by.
    Rings no bells for me, I don’t believe in blood sports.

  73. Tim Border says:

    If that had been my dog caught in a trap located where this one was, that trap and any others nearby would be sprung and at the bottom of the river now. And I would be the one laying the ‘trap’ for the bastard that laid the original trap.

  74. Coyote Trapper says:

    Johnathan Weber laid the original trap…

    He did it to generate a story to garner support for the Footloose anti-trapping initiative. Footloose is an organization that is not only anti-trapping but also anti-hunting and fishing as a whole. Really they are anti-Montana traditional values. Unfortunately, situations like this have happened but it is a very rare. This story however is a timely fabrication with a political spearhead. The proof is in the photo…

  75. mitch says:

    and your proof for this malicious accusation against Mr. Weber would be……………………..where? Easy to sit in front of your computer, CT and rant and rave, but when the rubber hits the road…………where’s your proof? It’s already been proven on this blog that you were posting under several names. You seemed to be the only one who was missing the disappearing posts, so obviously they were of no interest to the rest of us. Looking back thru the posts it appears that those they did leave on from you are nothing more than paranoid rants you’re pulling out of your ……….. somewhere. I for one am really tired of you.

  76. Karen says:

    Yikes!

    We were just walking our dog – he got caught in a trap and we had no idea how to get him out. The trap was set illegally and frankly scared the hell out of us all.

    I can assure you I am “Real” and so are our children. We are not journalists or associated with Footloose or any other anti-trapping group. We are just a family whose dog was caught in a trap- Please keep that in mind when you comment on this story.

    I wish that someone from the Montana Trappers Association would weigh in on this discussion.

    To Hawk and Coyote Trapper I have a few very real questions: What is your position on people who set traps illegally? What is your position on how far traps should be set from trails? What about hiker beware signs?

    Hawk – my husband is a journalist who also happens to have gone to Columbia for a Masters in political science…. I hate to wade into waters that are apropos of nothing but it’s hard for this wife not to take things a bit personally.

  77. NOFREEDM says:

    OK CT…HERE’S THE SITE IF YOU CAN READ. WHERE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT HUNTING AND FISHING:

    http://www.footloosemontana.org/

  78. Hawk says:

    If I was trapping I would only do it in the back country. The trapping can’t be that good along traveled trails. Over here those who practice trapping place signs, with trap design and time periods which the traps will be present. IDFG also places signs at trail heads when they are using leg snare traps to capture wolves..

    NO FREEDOM, how about posting a list of your largest corporate financial contributors, HSUS ? Sierra Club ? WWS ?

    Mitch, I am not threatened by anyone, I have nothing to fear.. I did read the article.. Fascinating how you have zero impact on our world..

  79. Jim Lang says:

    ^^ You seem to be laboring under a misapprehension about the meaning of the word ‘corporate’.

  80. make sense Montana says:

    Karen, Jonathan and family….

    We know you are “real”…and even the idiots that are attacking and accusing you know this.

    There is no defense for the trap that caught your dog. It makes all trappers look bad. The idiots know this, too. So all that is left to do is to attack you and your story. You will be discredited for having an agenda…all the sudden you will be painted as anti trapping, hunting, fishing….anti-Montana.

    A lazy, irresponsible trapper screwed up…putting innocent pets (and perhaps children) at risk – and you called them on it. Now they need to attack you. It’s almost like a desperate rape defense (you should not have dressed so suggestively and should not have been walking in that neighborhood that time of night)

    These people are dumb and scared. No one believes their attacks. They don’t, either. When behavior is not defensible, then all that is left is to attack the person that points out the behavior.

  81. Drover says:

    Please don’t delete any posts from this thread, unless they are blatant violations of terms of use. One seldom sees so many specious arguments and logic flaws in one place. I’m bookmarking this so I can use some of the material here in a seminar on critical thinking.

    I am very sorry to hear about your dog, and hope that he and all of you recover quickly.

    It’s moronic to jump to the conclusion that the author staged this. He has an injured dog and multiple witnesses to back up his story. The rants about “why should we trust you, since Stephen Glass & Jayson Blair fabricated stories” are utterly absurd. (http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html)

    Maybe it is a brand new trap. Maybe it’s some 12-year-old boy who bought a couple traps at the hardware store and is putting them out there to see what happens. My own brother did that a long time ago — caught our poor old tomcat by mistake. The cat lost a foot, and my brother learned that regeneration doesn’t happen for cats. (http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/)

    Seems like a far simpler explanation than the “it was put there by Sasha Obama to discredit trappers.” (SEE http://www.galilean-library.org/manuscript.php?postid=43832)

  82. Tom K says:

    “By NOFREEDM
    Since you are one of those “part time” trappers Tom K. “to make a little extra money” do you honestly believe that makes you ok? You have said what no one else on here has said, its all about money! ”

    First of all, I haven’t trapped since the mid 1960’s when the fur buyers stopped paying and wanted to trade traps for our furs.There was no longer an incentive to get up at 5 every morning and go trudging through the ice and snow and go back again after school and supper and homework and chores to check again.
    YES. Of course trapping is about money. Why else would anyone go through all that? Do you have a problem with capitalism? Is that what this about for you? Someone making money doing something you choose not to do?
    I too have a problem with people trapping and shooting in areas where they can hurt someone, but I have no problem putting food on my table or money in my pocket as long as it’s done legally and safely.

  83. horst says:

    Pastimes which involve causing pain to sentient creatures are basically cowardly acts.

  84. Riley says:

    Hi.Im Zach’s friend.I know that the story was true because zach sent me a picture of the trap at the site were Rontu in the trap.It looked like it hurt soo bad!(P.s. hi zach im soo sory about your dog!)

  85. max tanner says:

    screw who ever placed that trap.i have proof its real.there’s rust on the top,the paint is chipping,and i know jonathan weber,and he does NOT LIE!!!!!!

  86. Janice Creighton says:

    I heard about this from my friend Karen on Facebook and we have been friends for a very long time. I don’t know what all the other people’s agenda is (but it seems like a lot!) but I know her and her husband and their kids and their concern is for their dog! Jeez. Who ARE these people????!!!!

  87. Greg Lemon says:

    I know how to release a foothold trap, but snare and body traps I’m a little fuzzy on. FWP has a publication online that could help. If that isn’t enough info, I know they have pamphlets you can get at any local office. At the very least, we dog owners should know more about how to operate traps. I’m going to make sure I know this year.

    http://fwp.mt.gov/content/getItem.aspx?id=31413

  88. victor e. cow says:

    i tried to post earlier; i used to post regularly. i think these traps are outdated, perhaps save on land not immediately bordering public lands. common sense would seem to dictate that laying traps near public access and dog rec spots is kinda careless and asking for trouble, whether it’s the landowner’s right or not.

  89. Mel says:

    Jonathon,
    Send the photo to Bud Moore, Coyote Forest, Swan Valley,MT.
    As a trapper for over 60 years, a long time Forester and a Conservationist he will tell you that the trap was nearly new , probably set by a newbie that didn’t know what the hell he was doing. Bud will also comment if the Trapper’s Association doesn’t.

  90. Mel says:

    I have the Poacher Hotline in my cell phone.
    Any violation afield can be reported to TIP-MONT on 1-800-TIP-MONT, that is 1-800-847-6668.

  91. Hawk says:

    Jim, excuse me for misusing the word corporate, I meant corporation, no wait maybe it was corporatism, oh heck, just get over it man..
    ====================

    Hiking, walking the dog, skiing, spending time in our forests has it’s risks, we can run into one another at times and politely wave and smile, or grab our dogs who seem to want to rumble with one another, that butt sniffing can get risky at times, some people, though rare, get tangled up in some dudes trap line, usually their dog finds it, Dogs can run into other things out there while exploring as well, porkupines offer your dog a face full of quills, occasionally if not properly treated the dog can die from that as well, coyotes and even wolves have been known to entice your domestic dog to come away with them, once led off far enough they kill the pet and eat it…

    Then there are also the occasional bear encounters, most turn out good but that risk factor is there, then we have the cougar, they like to sneak around and on occasion will kidnap the pooch. We meet horses on the trail, I have seen dogs stomped and killed by a horse and mule, There are several risks while enjoying nature, there is the rabies virus, tape worms, and other parasite risks out there, of course a little management control by furriers can keep this threat down..

    Maybe we should ban all human interaction with the wilds and we can all be safer.. Oh yes I almost forgot, there is this possibility as well… Echinococcal disease in Alberta, Canada: more than a calcified opacity
    http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2334/5/34
    This one is a threat to humans, although rare. The Echinococcus Granulosus is relegated to the areas where dogs or wolves or foxes are eating the intestinal remains of infected herbivores and then passing it on the eggs in feces which, in turn, the herbivores eat inadvertently, Man gets into the picture when dog or wolf feces are infected and wind up in his food, OR when he eats infected herbivores.

    I hear tell them Idaho/Montanan wolves been meeting up with their Canadian cousins for a pow wow and little bartering now and again…

    Big problem is when deer wind up with it, or elk as well. Evidently, the wolf is passing it on to elk and deer. Hunters, does this make you concerned about not only is the wolf decimating the deer and elk. They are also infecting them with a parasitic host that is deadly to man. Of course, this does not concern most of the non-venison eaters who are the wolves bed-mates, and would like all hunters out of the woods.

    .And then there is that Wolverine, WOW, my favorite Predator, no really, I think their the coolest little bad ass walking around out there, you just never know what the dog is going to find out there…

    Gawd those woods are just scary…

  92. NOFREEDM says:

    Hawk…”you don’t trap, you rarely hunt and you don’t live in Montana” so what is your point? Why are you spouting off all this drible? When was the last time you even walked in the woods? Are there any woods left in Washington? Your diatrab is ridiculous. You do need to see a doctor…soon. I notice you do this on the Beacon too. This must be how you get your kicks, nuthin else to do right? If you don’t hunt or trap anymore why are you so radically opposed to stopping trapping? Your logic makes no sense. Why trap more animals when there are thousands of pelts they can’t even sell to the chinese or russians any more, they are sitting in warehouses hoping the prices will go back up. Why would condone something that is so archaic that no intelligent human being can fathom that it still exists. We would ANYBODY mangle a creature for no reason at all? Tell me that trappers….WHY?

  93. Hawk says:

    NOFREEDM,

    Your chosen handle says it all.

    Never heard of the Beacon and I am not in Washington.. Apparently you don’t believe in open boarders, you know, that’s me looking over the fence into your backyard and complaining about how you keep your backyard.. Now when you shut down trapping, and move to hunting, and shut that down, are those nasty fire wood cutters next? You know those dead trees feed the eco system valuable nutrients and those wood stoves are stealing them.

    And as for nuthin to do, I am tending to a wounded horse and trapped here so I can care for him because I kinda like him and he needs me to save him. Nope, a trapper or hunter didn’t do it..

  94. Coyote Trapper says:

    NOFREEDOM

    Woops

    You said earlier that you only wanted to stop trapping on public lands…now your Freudian slip says you want to ban trapping altogether.

    ‘Footloose’ is an organization that is out to ban trapping, hunting, and fishing on public and private lands across all 50 states. You’re proving my point and I thank you for it. Footloose wants to start small with public lands trapping and try to separate, what you feel is the weakest part of the sporting community, from the rest of the heard. Then, if you are successful you move to ban trapping on all lands, public or private. Next you’ll start on something else, maybe it is bow hunting, or rifle hunting or more specifically bow hunting bison on public lands. Responsible trapping serves a much greater need than simply selling furs. Basic examples are ungulate and predatory game management (both of which are extremely broad topics), protection of human life, protection of livestock, disease management, ecological landscape management and the list goes on.

    This story was based on the concept of an irresponsible trapper placing a trap where they should not have. The concept is real, (although I disagree with the validity of this story) and situations like this happen. Last legislative session a bill was introduced to make mandatory trapper education through FWP. Unfortunately, it was killed in the house fish and game committee. No matter what you do in life (play tennis or trap) laws are made for the minority. The vast majority of trappers (99% +) are individuals who have a greater love and passion for wildlife than to members of Footloose.

    What should be done about this particular incident is up to law enforcement. The trap was not tagged, according to the story, so right there the individual was breaking the law. Did the trapper have permission? No one seems to know or care. Was the author trespassing? Again, no one seems to know or care. The bigger question is how to prevent the majority of future occurrences? This is best handled through education and regulation of all parties involved. Are the regulations on trapping near public trail heads and near public roads, etc. adequate? How could they be improved? Should dogs be leased on public lands? At all times or during certain trapping season? The list goes on for pages…

    The solution does not lie in banning trapping and supporting the anti-trapping, -hunting, and -fishing agenda of Footloose and their parent groups. Rather it lies in the same direction of game management as a whole. To generate interest in conservation of our publicly owned lands and game we need to generate interest in the people. Legitimate, responsible trapping serves a legitimate game management need that cannot be addressed by alternate methods. Above all else it is a valid and legitimate avenue to introduce our youth to the principles of conservation and generate their interest in the public trust doctrine, the north american model of game management, and ethical, fair chase animal harvest.

    I support trapping not as a method to line my pockets but to conserved our lands, wildlife, and traditions for generations to come. I also hunt, fish, identify butterflies and wildflowers, photograph all aspects of nature, educate my kids on conservation issues, and fall asleep at night dreaming of leaving a better place for my children than was left to me. I do all this though the concept of the north american model of game managemet of which trappers are an integral and needed component.

    And with that I’m finished with this thread…

  95. Tim says:

    JW – I simply hope you canine companion is doing well. There is nothing like the helpless feeling of seeing an innocent child or pet injured due to another person’s careless or selfish actions.

    HAWK – I’m sure there are responsible trappers — and hunters and fire wood gatherers. Unfortunately, this appears to be a case where the trapping advocates should be jumping all over the person who set this trap rather than the owner of an injured family pet.

  96. ryanus says:

    IllogHawk:

    The world is dangerous, therefore placing leghold traps where people walk with their kids and dogs is not objectionable. Fantastic reasoning.

    One can only hope that you are indeed the spokesperson for trappers, because if you are, trapping’s days are limited.

  97. David Frey says:

    Jonathan,

    So sorry about your dog (glad he’s OK), and thanks for a thoughtful essay … followed by lots of thoughtless responses. It’s indicative of the Knee-Jerk Nation that you can’t post a personal, moderate story without being pounced on and piled on with ridiculous innuendo.

    It seems like a few of these readers missed the main point, so I’ll reiterate it again, and suggest that we follow it online as well as outdoors: Don’t be an asshole.

  98. NOFREEDM says:

    CT you copied that whole thing from another thread. I have read it all before. Once was enough. Try an original thought next time.
    Hawk, it doesn’t matter where you are, you are not in Montana!

  99. NOFREEDM says:

    And, why didn’t you good ole boys answer ANY of my questions?

  100. mitch says:

    the phone # for petition to end this disgusting practice is 406-546-9945.

  101. Hawk says:

    NOFREEDM,

    Still waiting for that list of parent donors to your cause I requested.. Sierra Club ? HSUS ? WWS ?

    I might take up trapping some day, who knows, I may wish to make myself some new moccasins or gloves…

    Hey and thanx for the elk and deer this last season, I enjoyed spending my bucks and time in Montana..

  102. Anja Heister says:

    To Hawk and others who support trapping and who play the “fear” tactic card: Footloose Montana’s mission is “to promote trap-free public lands.” Our goal to end the cruel practice of trapping for fun and profit has nothing to do with hunting as evidenced by many hunters and anglers in our membership.
    Many hunters oppose trapping for several reasons, including the non-existent fair chase, and the cruelty inherent in the practice of setting baited, indiscriminate traps that catch anything that is unfortunate enough to step into them. There is no mandatory trap check, which means an animal caught in a trap may linger for seeral days and nights before the trapper returns and blodgens the animal (if still alive) to death, stomps, strangulates or shoots the animal.
    Everyone, call (406) 546-9945 to get involved and help to end this travesty!

  103. Mr. twister says:

    Jonathan, I couldn’t agree more with you…the kid that set the trap is a little asshole. You should have staked out the set and ambushed the little bastard and after a good cussing, taken his name and trap to the warden. But you didn’t, did you? So here we are ranting and raving many days later. The fact is that a Blake & Lamb #3 won’t break a dogs foot or your kids either. Life goes on and nannies get their knickers in knots. Nice back door way to throw gas on the fire though.

  104. Sasquatch says:

    MT in 2010 should be trap free. You right wing nutters dont want to protect the habitat (NREPA) yet you want to keep trapping like the Mtn’s harbor historic levels of species. Wolverines should not be trapped in MT, the season is only 5 wolverines total. Thats such a pathetic season that it hardly justifies keeping one. Pine Martens should not be trapped in MT. There are simply not enough left due to Over-trapping.

    To claim a factual story was faked is not only slanderous but dispicable. Fabricating lies and attacking the author is the right wing crazy way though. If you trappers want to keep trapping your going to have to protect some real habitat and dare I say Wilderness to ensure these species have enough habitat to remain at trapable levels.

  105. Sasquatch says:

    kit carson & coyote trapper

    every1 in the USA is growing tired of your fear-mongering and spread of lies and propoganda. This is not remotley about fishing and hunting rights or acess rights or gun rights or any of the usual squealing. Eberytime someone tries to stop a destructibe practice pn public lands you rightwingcrazies divert the issue at hand to a whole different realm. No noe is trying to ban hunting or fishing on public lands. It’s like everytime one destructive, seldom-used logging road is brought up for closure you nutters act like they’re trying to close ALL you roads and acess. Stop exageraating and crying wolf your pathetic.

  106. Mike says:

    Anyone who still traps is a moron, plain and simple. Sure, it was a necessary evil back when we had to bust through the frontier and develop this country. But in todays overpopulated world there is absolutely no place for it. Calling it “tradition” doesn’t mean a damn thing. It’s a relic of the past and needs to be laid to rest.

    I wish New West had been more active in the anti-trapping, anti-poisoning topics we might see more progess on this.

  107. Seth says:

    This conversation is ridiculous. If the trap was near a recreation trail that a lot of people use, near enough to catch a dog on a walk, then it was a bad set. If your goal is to promote trapping the right thing is to admit that point and not work up these huge constructs trying to defend a sloppy trapper. It is not an all-or-nothing discussion, it’s about being responsible at a potentially dangerous activity.

    I don’t trap now but did for many years as a kid. I would not support a bill that banned trapping on public lands, but I have seen enough to understand why a reasonable person might. My dad would contact trappers not checking their sets, or spring them if they were untagged or unsafe. He knew 20 years ago that the bad apples would eventually ruin it for the rest of us.

    I’m sorry about your dog. I hope he has a short recovery.

  108. Jonathan Weber says:

    Thanks to the many of you who expressed good wishes to my dog and my family, I appreciate it. Rontu is doing very well, no serious long-term injury.

    I also appreciate the comment above from Seth, and Tom K.’s and other comments that take a common-sense approach and point to possible solutions. I was interested that Hawk mentioned that in Idaho, “those who practice trapping place signs, with trap design and time periods which the traps will be present.”

    If there were more common sense rules/ regulations in place, there would be far fewer pet/trap incidents, and there probably wouldn’t be a ballot initiative to ban all public land trapping. But as long as trappers respond to incidents like this in the way that many have on this thread, their views are ultimately going to be written off by most people. Although I have never spoken to anyone from Footloose Montana, my sense is this ballot measure it driven in part by frustration over the “I’ll trap wherever I damn please” attitude and contempt for the very legitimate concerns of many Montanans.

    For the record, I did call FWP enforcement before I posted this story and an officer will be coming to look at the site and the trap soon.

  109. Sasquatch says:

    I’ve always been interested in trapping and have enjoyed stroies from the hudson bay dyas to Jim Bridger to the latter day trapper types like Andy Russel. It’s hard to justify continued trapping without real, protected wilderness to provide for these trappers.
    In the case of Wolverines and Pine Martens it should be banned. How can you have a species on the threatened list and continually up for endangered species status the Wolverine and justofy trapping five wolverines. The biologists know it’s dangerous to even have a trapping season on a species with such low numbers and densities but Fish and Wildlife are spinelss cowards who cater to and fear the various, powerful MT trapping groups. I dont care if you support banning all trapping in MT or favor absolutely no regualtion on trapping; nobody can justify to continue trapping Wolverines and Pine Martens in MT.

  110. kit Carson says:

    i trap. But no way should any trapper trap wulverines or p[ine martens. nor fishers. there all too rare and any one who does it is a idiot.

  111. Kokanee says:

    If your dog runs free out of your voice command or is not trained to voice command it is highly recommended that you leash up. If your dog is caught chasing,harassing, or killing you will be subject to a fine and perhaps court. That is according to the national forest headquarters and montana public lands I checked you call them and ask can my dog run free they will tell you yes then ask if your dog is caught running game or killing wildlife what will happen. You fools let your dog run loose then complain when they get into trouble.

  112. Tanbiker2 says:

    John has a every right to be upset and angry that a trapper set an illegal trap, failed to mark it as the law requires, and then had the gall to come back and reset the trap after his dog was freed. If this guy keeps setting traps, perhaps one should consider digging a bunji stake pit or two around the area where the trapper is setting his legholds. They worked very effectively in Viet Nam and can easily be rigged so a lighter weight animal like a dog won’t be victimized.

  113. Mike says:

    I take every trap I find in the forests and recycle them.

  114. Kokanee says:

    Not one dog owner wants to have his or her pet,loved one,cherished family member hurt maimed crippled or worse. Yet every year they get this and more. I was young and naive did not leash overconfident in my dog whispering skills it cost me two border collies that went on a stroll with me unleashed, my neighbor came over too give me a hand on some plumbing brought his dog which disappeared upon leaving the truck not a minute had passed he laid dead in the street. Good friend of mine hiking in the Salmon wilderness took his companion for a walk, with the dog in lead out in front heard horrible yelping racing to his rescue only to come around the bend to find his dog stretched out between two wolves like a play toy one by the throat the other hind leg. Every since I lost my border collies my dogs are never ever unleashed in the forest. They have no idea what awaits them there they were not born into it and have no clue. To all you “dog lovers” it is irresponsibility on your part to let your loved one frolic in nature. If you love them leash them, Oh! that’s right your dog would never do that.

  115. Hawk says:

    I shoot every wolf I find in the forest and nail their hide to a tree.

  116. Jim Lang says:

    How many of you have even seen a wolverine in the wild? I feel very fortunate that I have… it is estimated that there are fewer than 500 wolverines living in the lower 48… to allow trapping of this animal is insane.

  117. Sasquatch says:

    chicken hawk

    your a pathetic poacher.

    If Wolverines, Pine Martens and Fishers are still trapable at MT despite their extremly low numbers then obvioulsy some trapping reform is needed.

  118. Hawk says:

    You two are stupid, I landed me a couple fat mouth carp..

    Grand theft of a legally set trap line is perfectly alright though.

    By Mike, 12-01-09
    I take every trap I find in the forests and recycle them.

    I knew you sucker fish would take the bait..

  119. Marc says:

    Sorry to hear about Rontu. But let’s be positive. While his leg may be sore, at least he did not have to suffer the cretinous bile that spewed on this blog like a bursting adolescent zit. So he’s got that going for him, right?

  120. Hawk says:

    To funny. Individual cretinous bile which does not fit the molded thoughts of the collective against said Liberty. The truth is according to the 40 page Earth Summit manual put forth by the U.N., Agenda 21, The United Nations Programme of action from Rio.. Not one single American activity in our forests is sustainable, Not one.. My cause is laughter, Because you are banning yourselves with these initiatives. Old Papa Bush Signed the agreement in 1992, and Bill Clinton executed the agreement via executive order. We are stand on equal footing according to those documents, all of us are ruining the wild lands..

  121. NOFREEDOM says:

    First of all I would like to say that there are NO BIG INTERESTS (i.e. HSUS, PETA, ETC) behind either Footloose or Montanans for Trap Free Public Lands. We are all just people who have had encounters with trappers where (1) they didn’t belong (2) our domestic animals were hurt and (3) we got educated on the real mentality of trappers!

    I was hoping I wouldn’t see you here Kokanee, you are a thorn in everyone’s side with your ridiculous rantings. Oh and Hawk, you still haven’t seen that doctor have you. Please do so you can carry on an intelligent conversation.

    We do not have to tell everyone what kind of people trappers are, you are doing it quite well. Carry on boys!

  122. Kokanee says:

    What part of my post is a “ridiculous rant” it is fact. Something you cannot stand, to be held responsible and accountable for your actions not blaming someone else for something you could have prevented. No you want to take away someones right to legally recreate how they wish so you can let your dog’s run wherever you please. Leash up and keep your dog safe !

  123. NOFREEDOM says:

    My dogs are always under my voice command control which is totally legal in the state of Montana..read the law. What is not under control is trapping on public lands “within 50 to 100 feet of public trails”. That is not control that is ridiculous. Let’s forget the dogs for a minute. Where is the law that I HAVE TO STAY ON THE TRAILS. What if I CHOOSE to wander thru the wilderness and step in one of your traps, and don’t tell me they cannot be big enough to hurt me, I have seen the big ones and they could break my leg! So now its not my dog in the trap boys its a human being. What does that person do if, like me, a 68 year old woman can’t get out alone? So I guess the wilderness is off limits to me too. I cannot chose where to walk for fear that one of your treacherous traps will put me in danger of losing MY LIFE….is that what your telling me boys??? So you consider trapping RECREATION but my walking in the woods is NOT. I see, your logic is incredible but then you have always had incredible logic haven’t you KOK!

  124. Hawk says:

    Seems foot loose has lost this vote in the past, have they not ? Eventually you may be successful, the problem is all government wild life agency’s use traps, and they use your tax bucks to operate. Reasonable minded readers can clearly see who resorts to personal attacks here, and who attempts to carry on a logical fact based conversation.. NOFREEDOM, you got nothing… We all pay for trapping.

  125. Kit Carson says:

    hawk….your not doing us trappers any good. shut up, go back where you came from and get lost.

  126. Kokanee says:

    You can recreate any place you so choose that is legal. My point has to do with topic of this article. There has been trapping since man has been eating and clothing his body. What place is it yours to decide where I can and cant pursue my sport as long as I am in my legal boundaries. There are many possible scenarios to which you can add to this argument. Due to the fact that dogs are dogs you cannot be in control of them at all times off leash or otherwise they are animals and do things with or without your permission. So scream and stomp all you want but you have to take responsibility for your part in this. Leash up and hike to your hearts content confident that your taking care not to put your animal in danger.

  127. Hawk says:

    Glad to see you can spell now Carson..

    Trapping is one of the few if not only ways to control some animals and is a great way to get fur for coats, gloves, etc. It is also one of the oldest “hunting” methods that humans have practiced for generations. It is unfortunate that dogs sometimes fall prey to traps, but it is interesting that if wolves killed “cupcake” the dogs owner would not get much sympathy from footloose. Regulations should be stringent regarding trapping near trails, but trapping itself is a great way to enjoy the outdoors and should not be banned. When you take your pets in the wild you incur some risk, wolves, traps, etc.

    Contrary to the views of Footloose and the theme of their ads, traps are not strewn all over the countryside like landmines. Trappers choose their sets carefully and prudently, and don’t want you to see their traps any more than you want to see them. Also, trapping does not occur at all times of the year. Even though predator trapping is open year-round, pelts are worthless in the warm months. This means few will trap during this time except for damage trappers, who are licensed professionals.

    Also, according to FWP, only six dogs have been killed in traps in the last DECADE! Think of the number of pets killed on the highway in ONE YEAR and then try to tell me that trapping is a major threat to dogs.

  128. NOFREEDOM says:

    a great way to get fur for coats, gloves,..trapping itself is a great way to enjoy the outdoors and should not be banned..

    where I can and cant pursue my sport as long as I am in my legal boundaries.

    You have both hung yourselves. I have nothing further to say.

  129. Kokanee says:

    Nofreedom why do you feel the need to threaten people on the internet. You did the same thing on the Beacon then stopped posting when you saw that it would not be tolerated. Sharing this old earth is what I intend to do but you just cannot force your will on everybody and expect that it will be met with open arms. So by taking your ball home you think that you have will have the last say.
    How childish.

  130. Anja Heister says:

    To Hawk and others,

    first of all, here is the response from Brian Giddings, FWP’s Furbearer Coordinator to my question as to whether there is a positive correlation between fur trapping and disease control: “Neither FWP or I have made claims that there is scientific information that addresses the relationship between recreational trapper harvest and disease control… FWP regulates furbearer trapping seasons for recreational harvest opportunities. Montana’s harvest seasons are not based on reducing or controlling diseases.”
    Secondly, Footloose is the only organization that actually keeps record of pet-related trap incidents, not FWP. We have documented 20 cases over the last three trapping seasons, out of which 6 dogs DIED in traps or snares. These reports are only the tip of the iceberg and were made by people who knew about Footloose Montana and knew that we care.
    Our experience shows that the more we talk with people, the more stories (some are quite gruesome!) we hear shared by people whose dogs went missing and came back a few days later with a chewed off foot; we have heared from folks, primarily hunters, who have encountered wildlife in traps and decided to shoot the trapped animals to put them out of their misery!
    Footloose doesn’t care about hunting but TRAPPING HAS TO END!

  131. Hawk says:

    Trapping has to end based on estimations, assumptions, hear say and emotions.. Voters fall for these cliches in America while voting on most issues, try cliches and emotions in a Court of Law…

    NoFreedom, do you also intend to stop others from using those mice traps, and rat traps when they invade folks homes, and pantry. Or are deer mice going on the endangered list as well…

    We’ll all likely hang together since we are so divided in this nation..

  132. NOFREEDOM says:

    Do you honestly believe KOK that I stopped posting on the Beacon because “it would not be tolerated”? You are soooo wrong KOK. I just got tired of idiots like you and Hawk. You cannot come up with anything logical so you say things like I quoted in my last post and you posted in this one. You both try to fight intelligence with brawling street corner agendas. Sorry boys, I just don’t see either one of you, or the others of your ilk, worth taking any more of my time. Which was the same on the Beacon. Fortunately, you have made your own cases, AGAINST trappers, by your own idiotic statements, I have never threatened anyone, just stated the facts. You have already lost.

  133. Jonathan Weber says:

    OK, I’m going to close this thread if folks can’t be more civil. One more comment that includes personal attacks/ name-calling and we’ll have to shut it down, enough is enough. Thanks.

  134. NOFREEDOM says:

    Jonathan, I would like to appologize to you for allowing these boys to get to me. Normally, I can control my responses, however, sometimes its very hard in situations like this. I appologize if I have offended you or the good readers of this paper in any way. That was not my intention. I seriously just want to stop trapping on public lands so my animals (or myself) are not in danger. Thank you for letting everyone know what happened to you and I sincerely hope your dog is doing well. Mine is fine but both you and I were very lucky. These traps were not killers as many others are. Thank you again for allowing those of us against trapping the ability to voice our opinions (although I should have been much nicer) on this forum.

  135. Hawk says:

    NoFreedom, maybe you should give Eckhart Tolle a read, ” A new Earth” Awakening to your lifes purpose… Understanding the identity crisis of the human individual, When attacking the beliefs of others we are attacking their identity, which causes the instinctive reaction of self defense… It helps to understand this. Why can you not see the world through my eyes, and vise versa.. Your heart is in the right place, I disagree with your objective which is to punish and entire activity for the bad actions of the few.. Being a Naturalist type hunter gatherer I see this being outlawed totally, one day.. I am defending my heritage..

  136. NOFREEDOM says:

    Was that an appology Hawk. I will take it as one.

  137. Anja Heister says:

    So, now that we are all nice again… Continue to stay open minded and help get the “Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Intiative” (I-160) on the 2010 ballot so that the public can decide whether or not to allow trapping on public lands!

    Call (406) 546-9945 or (406) 274-7878 for info!

    Anja

  138. Hawk, says:

    NoFreedom, I do not owe you and apology.

  139. Monica Engebretson says:

    For over 10 years, Born Free USA united with Animal Protection Institute has conducted research into the use of body-gripping traps and has tracked trapping incidents across the country involving companion animals and threatened and endangered species.

    We have also assisted many local communities and state legislators in introducing legislation to reduce or eliminate the dangers posed by body-gripping traps.

    Traps are notoriously indiscriminate and pose a serious hazard to non-target species, including family cats and dogs and threatened and endangered species. Despite years of research, there have been no significant advances in reducing non-target captures in traps. In fact, research has shown that for every target animal captured an average of at least 2 other non-target animals are caught.

    For more information contact us by visiting http://www.bancrueltraps.org or http://www.bornfreeusa.org

  140. X. Beidler says:

    Sorry for the dog, but this DOES look like a planted trap. An un-dyed, un-tagged trap set randomly in a public area is not the work of anyone who is intent on actually keeping what they catch, but to harass or worse, provide a staged event for a political cause.
    Pretty pathetic.
    How could some group see this as a way to justify their agenda?Kind of like how PETA was found guilty of euthanizing puppies and dumping them in a dumpster, a year or so ago…all the while decrying the plight of unadopted animals. Sick.

  141. Hawk says:

    Hunting dog decoy
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwYz_3VKWFo

    This is why pets should be banned from public lands, they harass wild life and interfere with nature..

  142. Karen says:

    Monica,

    Thanks for weighing in with a reasonable response and a link to your web-site.

  143. Dave Skinner says:

    While this looks like an illegal set by a bonehead, I’m kind of disappointed that JW hasn’t taken steps to wise up his dog…which is probably wiser now anyway. Go buy a little trap, put some stinky meat on it, and see what your dog does now when it finds it. Or just lay it out in the yard at home. Then, next time out, no problem.
    For example, in Arizona there are rattlers, right? And there are classes that responsible people take to train their dogs that rattlers are not to be messed with. The training takes. And can be refreshed from time to time.
    This comment line is all hype by folks more against trapping than they are for protecting and training their dogs to be trap-safe.

  144. Jim Lang says:

    ^^ You’ve got to be kidding.

  145. Ollie says:

    wow. everything about the ugliest in humans – all wrapped up in this thread. its horribly amazing.

  146. Patia says:

    The blame-the-victim mentality and right-wing paranoia on display here is so typical and stupid.

    No matter what kind of creature gets caught in them, traps are terribly cruel and inhumane.

  147. Mehmnet says:

    Who thinks up these traps? I’d say get a few and put them near the perp’s kids – we’ll see how they like it when toddlers end up missing a leg.

    For God’s sake, be a real MAN and stalk the beast and kill it with a gun or crossbow.

    Losers!!!

  148. NOFREEDOM says:

    MONTANANS FOR TRAP FREE PUBLIC LANDS! CALL THE NUMBERS ABOVE OR IN KALISPELL E-MAIL ME AT cjrolphe@bresnan.net. WE WILL BE HAPPY TO GET YOUR SIGNATURES ON OUR PETITIONS TO ELIMINATE THIS HORRIFIC “SPORT”!!!

  149. Anja Heister says:

    To X. Beidler,

    out of the 20 reports Footloose Montana has received since we started keeping track of pet-related trap incidents, 19 (!) were set illegally!

    Interestingly, we always hear the same lame arguments by trappers when pets get injured or killed in traps: “The trap incident was STAGED….”, or “This must be the work of an inexperienced trapper who doesn’t know what he is doing…”

    Reality is however, like Monica pointed out, that traps are indiscriminate, and will catch any animal unfortunate enough to be lured into them.
    And THAT is the reason, Dave Skinner, why dogs can not be trained to stay away from traps and snares — the bait has always a different bait (depending on the species the trapper wants to kill).
    Finally, does everyone know how trappers kill wildlife still alive in traps? The trappers’ killing methods of choice include bludgeoning or stomping the animals to death, strangulating, or shooting them in the head or in the anus.
    If one of us were to treat a domestic animal the way trappers treat our wildlife caught in traps, we would be prosecuted under Animal Cruelty Statutes.
    Think about this and then SIGN the “Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Initiative”… Call (406) 546-9945.

  150. Hawk says:

    Out of 20 reports to footloose concerning pet related incidents 19 traps were ILLEGAL sets..

    So why bust the people operating legally?

  151. Hawk says:

    There is a four legged snapping jaws mobilized trap in the woods as well, it uses leg hold techniques and nose hold techniques on the victims it traps, this tool often runs in tandem or larger groups. The death grip is painful, often the victims are eaten alive, while being dragged about and stomped and beaten, even clubbed by rocks or branches on the ground during the fight.. The screaming by the victims, which I have personally witnessed is horrific and fascinating all at the same time… Of course this is all natural and approved, unless it happens to your dog..Then your mad… ” This can’t happen to me.”

  152. Journalism101 says:

    When the writer’s kid, parents, family –have to write in and attempt to defend the article…that’s when the editor needs to get his/her money back.

  153. Jim Lang says:

    ^^^ It’s pretty obvious that you never attended Journalism 101.

    Anonymous accusations come from cowards.

  154. Anja Heister says:

    To Hawk,

    … if the MAJORITY of trappers we have heard of are setting traps illegally, how do you suggest, we should know that there are trapper who are actually operating legally?
    Besides, the public has never had the chance to decide whether trapping should be legal or not. This is what the “Montana Trap-Free Public Lands Initiative ” (I-160) is aming at: To give the public a voice to decide an issue, that it is in my opinion, an anachronism of society and should end. The time for trapping is OVER!

  155. mitch says:

    As is said, a few slobs ruin it for all. Nothing we can do about that but put an end to it all. Part that baffles me is setting a trap with a particular type of victim in mind and hoping that particular animal stumbles onto your trap? Just what part of that makes sense? What do you do with all the bodies you find until you hit upon what you really want?

  156. Kokanee says:

    Well Mitch that is the difference between somebody who spends a lot of time knowing the habits of the catch species and somebody that just throws steel on the ground hoping something steps in it.Very seldom do I have anything but what I intended. Never have I caught a dog or house cat and the only other people I have seen where I trap are snowmobilers and houndsman.

  157. NOFREEDOM says:

    KOK, isn’t a “houndsman” using dogs? Aren’t those dogs in danger from YOUR TRAPS?

  158. NOFREEDOM says:

    Be honest now, have you EVER CAUGHT a HOUND dog in your traps KOK?

  159. Kokanee says:

    No I have never ever caught a hound or any other domesticated animal, we did however catch a lion once. CJ you know this is not going to pass this year right!?

  160. Hawk says:

    It won’t pass because the government agencies use leg hold traps.

  161. Bob says:

    Hawk, you sure take yourself seriously.

  162. James Robinson says:

    Hawk, did you actually read Weber’s article?

    I mean before you started ranting your self-serving, overly dramatic nonsense?

    Weber’s original bit on his dog getting trapped was thoughtful and reasoned. He actually laid aside issues of whether this was legal a trap. He was more interested in asking, “what kind of asshole sets a trap this close to a highly trafficked public area where kids and dogs play?”

    What kind of asshole indeed. Perhaps the kind of asshole who mindlessly quotes snippets of right wing theology and silly aphorisms he got off some whackjob, fake faux patriot Web site.

    Hawk the 90s called and they want your Montana Freemen membership card back.

    Douche.

  163. Hawk says:

    To funny, and I did it with out calling anyone a Douche, asshole or whack job conspiring paste and copy cat…

    I just love the U.S.A. The United States of Assumption..

  164. Hawk says:

    Footloose advocates, did you actually read Weber’s article?

    I mean before you started ranting your self-serving, overly dramatic nonsense?

    Weber’s original bit on his dog getting trapped was thoughtful and reasoned. He actually laid aside issues of whether this was legal a trap. He was more interested in asking, “what kind of asshole sets a trap this close to a highly trafficked public area where kids and dogs play?”

    What kind of asshole indeed. Perhaps the kind of asshole who mindlessly quotes snippets of Footloose theology and silly aphorisms he got off some whackjob, fake faux animal rights, anti hunting, money grubbing Web site.

    Footloose advocates the sucker donaters called and they want their donations back.

    Footloose Douche’s.

    I like this rewrite to.. Thanks Mr. Robinson, of course my point is, only footloose has the right to use Mr Weber’s thread for self serving overly dramatic purposes.. All others should crawl under the supper table and shut up unless spoken to..

    Freedom of expression be damned..

  165. Kokanee says:

    Could not agree more Hawk

  166. Anja Heister says:

    Re: “what kind of asshole sets a trap this close to a highly trafficked public area where kids and dogs play?”

    Montana’s trapping regulations allow traps to be set:
    * 30 feet from the centerline of a public road.
    * 50 feet from a public trail.
    * 300 feet from trailheads (for non-lethal snares and leghold)
    * 1,000 feet from trailheads (for lethal neck snares and Conibear)

    Of course, these regs only apply to “furbearers” and not to coyotes, weasels and skunks, species that can be trapped year-round. NO regs apply to the trapping of these species!

  167. NOFREEDOM says:

    Anja, you don’t know these guys (KOK and HAWK) but their sole mission in life is to make themselves appear to be intelligent backers of trapping. It is unfortunate that the trappers don’t have any better spokesmen than these two and a couple of other raging lunatics but thats the way it is. They do NOT want to think that there are actually intelligent REASONS for not trapping. The cannot answer intelligent questions about what would happen if one of their dogs or children got caught in these inhumane traps. They do not have intelligent agendas for counteracting any logical materials that are thrown at them. Their answers are ALWAYS ridiculous and inate. However, Anja, they are fun so keep throwing the truth at them and we will see what they come up with next. teehee.

  168. problembear says:

    re: rabid pro-trappers- when i deal with idiots i like to pay out more rope and let them hang themselves. it doesn’t take long.

  169. Hawk says:

    Pretty funny actually, We are skeered to death our child will end up in a leg hold trap.. God forbid, but when you do a good job raising your child until they make 18 years it is perfectly fine to teach em to kill some one else’s child across the pond, and ship em off to the military industrial complex’s wars over mammon, oil, “security”.. Maybe trappers should switch to land mines..

  170. horst says:

    NOFREEDOM:
    Inate is a good word for so many of the Montana outofworkers who post to this forum. It actually appears that they have not formulated a new idea since they were born.
    That is the nut of RightWingCrazy…

  171. NOFREEDOM says:

    See, I told you Anja, another inane argument from Hawk. Come on now KOK, its your turn.

  172. Kokanee says:

    CJ cannot wait for your crow pie, it is coming what are you going to wash it down with Chateau La’ Sniffle

  173. Beargrass says:

    so hawk

    your heritage is poaching and killing of all predators.
    Sounds like pioneer and now far right culture all right.

  174. James Robinson says:

    Hawk,

    Great job with the war metaphor. Totally, um, relevant.

    Can you honestly say you didn’t vote for the guy who just got us into the nonsensical war for oil you seem to be (sort of) alluding to?

    The only way I believe that a nutjob troll right winger like you didn’t vote Bush is if you just didn’t vote. Maybe you were counting your stockpile of MREs or tending an imaginary wounded horse?

    Anyway, it’s 2009. What kind of asshole sets traps, period?

    “Ooh look at me, I’m a grizzled mountain man! See my traps! See my, um, giant pickup truck and my beer belly! I couldn’t walk more than a mile or two without losing my wind, but I shore do like to pretend I’m a big man and wear my dumb hat while I watch ESPN4 sport fishing shows. I’ve got an ATV. I am like Lewis and Clark. Except stupid and lazy! And I work at Schucks Auto Supply. I am a retard!”

  175. Kokanee says:

    Boy I am glad that guy is on your side.

  176. James Robinson says:

    Now that was a good comeback, Kokanee.

    But to your earlier point:

    “What place is it yours to decide where I can and cant pursue my sport as long as I am in my legal boundaries.”

    That’s the idea. We want to revise those legal boundaries so you are only allowed to trap on your private land (in your case, probably a trailer park?). It is our right as citizens to advocate such new law.

    On public land, weigh the rights of a handful of deluded, dorky Davy Crockett wannabes who seek to inflict pain on animals for sport against the rights of gazillions of dog owners who just want to let their dogs run around off-leash?

    And I still bet Hawk is an out of shape beer guzzling smelly smacktard.

  177. NOFREEDOM says:

    OH JAMES YOU ARE WONDERFUL…..no one could have said it better!!!

  178. NOFREEDOM says:

    He is on our side boys…does that make your knees wobble. We do have a lot of people on our side that don’t put up with your idiotic diatribes. So understand something boys..we are coming and we are going to stop trapping on public lands and you won’t stop us…period!

  179. Kokanee says:

    James IMO you talk a lot of internet smack if Montana laws and regulations offend you do your best to change them. If you cannot maybe you should try trapping it’s a great way to see nature in winter.

  180. James Robinson says:

    Kokanee, there are lots of ways to see nature in winter that don’t require inflicting pain on little animals.

    These other ways do typically require you to engage in cardiovascular exercise and not rely on your machines to move you around, so I could see where you don’t know about them.

    Skiing is one great way. The great thing about skiing is, when you’re done for the day and warm at home at night, there aren’t any beaver or coyotes freezing to death in a trap somewhere out there or gnawing their own leg off.

    Although, you’re the trapper–do they really gnaw their own leg off or do they just suffer for 24-36 hours before dying of exposure? Which is liberal hyperbole and which is true? You tell me.

    I do talk a lot of Internet smack.

    It makes me laugh, and then I get to read the convoluted responses from halfwits like you. Honestly, most of your points don’t even logically follow. It’s just word soup, like your girlfriend Palin.

  181. the real mike says:

    James, stop and think for a minute. In fact, lots of people associated with this thread, perhaps including Weber, need to stop and think about whether it makes a whole lot of sense to try to reason with people who spend their time and money making a hobby out of slowly killing and ripping the skins off small dead mammals. They’re not exactly working a second job and saving up to send their kids to a good college now are they? Is anything constructive going to be accomplished by trying to talk sense to these kinds of creatures? They’re clearly so far gone as to be pretty much beyond redemption, wouldn’t you think? I was always advised to never wrestle with pigs; you just get all dirty, which the pigs actually like.

  182. Kokanee says:

    Well then I must be an enigma to you both. My daughter graduated Seattle Pacific University three years ago and in March will graduate from some law in school in Atlanta I believe it is called Emory or something like that. My eldest son is currently in some school called John Hopkins,my youngest son is currently being a beach bum of some sort says it is his calling. My youngest is my daughter she is a princess and plans on attending Veterinary college in Colorado or Oklahoma.
    Mondays are my extreme cardio day I have a 12.1 mile loop I do, walking of course knees are shot it takes 3 and a half hours give or take some days are better than others. The rest of the week I alternate between the stationary bike and weights.I coached wrestling for about four years while my sons were in school then it did not appeal to me as much when they graduated.
    I vote Democrat but not the ones you follow you see democrats used to stand for something other than “free willy”, we actually worked hard and played even harder.Excuse my digression, I am not going to let you do what you want on these forums without some grief. Anyone with a modicum of knowledge can see where you are taking us and the road will force restrictions on you as well. The group as a whole is too nearsighted to understand this you may win the battle (not) but you will lose the war that I promise. Enough with the name calling, you cannot even see that we could be allies but you choose to alienate everyone that does not agree with your exact agenda. So good luck with that.

  183. James Robinson says:

    Kokanee, I apologize. I have misjudged you.

    Turns out you value education, fitness, and traditional Democratic party values. Sounds like you raised three fine kids.

    I just don’t understand how tricking small animals into getting their legs snapped in steel vises, to die slowly and in pain fits into the worldview you’ve described, but I am sure it somehow makes sense to you.

    You didn’t answer the question about the gnawing off of the leg or the just dying slowly from exposure.

    Is it especially sporting on those times you come upon the animal still alive and struggling in panic?

    I consider a careful aim at range within my abilities fair chase. Trapping is just sadism.

    Some people call cockfighting “sport” and “tradition” as well.

  184. Kokanee says:

    Now a lesson on me. Be extremely subtle, even to the point of formlessness. Be extremely mysterious, even to the point of soundlessness. Thereby you can be the director of the opponent’s fate General Sun Tzu. My hero’s run the gamut from Genghis Khan to Theodore Roosevelt and many more in between. We are nothing alike James my nose does not turn from blood or bone it is part of the natural world that I do not shy from.
    You ask callous questions and expect me to entertain you! what is that will it further your cause get, off your soap box you are not above me or others, given the right circumstances you would do the same. You are only human!!

  185. the real mike says:

    Kokanee, if you are who you describe yourself to be and still get your kicks out of slowly killing and ripping the skins off small dead mammals, then I do stand corrected. You’re psychological profile is much more like Ted Bundy or other serial perpetrators than like that of any mere hillbilly. You truly have revealed yourself to be a dangerously twisted character harboring internal inconsistencies that truly do point to some serious underlying issues, again far beyond those that I had previously attributed to “redeneck” isolation. Your delusional references to Sun Tzu and Genghis Khan simply complete the picture. Get some help. I’m dead serious; get some help before you lose what anchoring you have left.

  186. Kokanee says:

    Just cannot help yourselves attack belittle threaten all attributes of cyber bullies who have found someone that will stand up to them. Mike, until I see Ph.D behind your name I will assume you have a bad case of verbal diarrhea.

  187. Kokanee says:

    “If Some Animals Are Good At Hunting And Others Are Suitable For Hunting, Then The Gods Must Clearly Smile On Hunting” Aristotle

    If you believe we are part of the natural order of things then surely you can see that there are herbivores,carnivores and omnivores you fall into the category of ? Trapping is simply another form of hunting that you feel the need to attack because it does not align with your beliefs. This country was founded on being able to enjoy our freedoms. In knowing that there are inherent risks to letting your beloved dogs run loose are you not just as much to fault as the trapper ? I know I live in grizzly country so I carry pepper spray but I also know that this may or may not be a deterrent yet I still go forward. I accept the fact that I may not return home one day and still find my hikes enjoyable.

  188. Hawk says:

    James, how sweet of you to write me a hate letter, I really enjoyed it.

    First off I don’t vote, because I am not one of the fools who thinks the Republican Party and the Democrat party are two separate parties. Those two wings are attached to the same socialist bird and have been since at the minimum 1868. Now we find ourselves on the verge of National Financial Default.. Brilliant..

    I agree the death of any creature including the human is brutal, no matter the circumstances involved. I have spent a lot of time in Wilderness places watching life go on, predators kill and eat baby fawns, elk calves, they rip them to pieces, eating them alive, it is nature, and any where in the wild world nature is violent. Every time we step into those places we risk any type of natural death.. Man being a part of nature has devised survivalist techniques, those techniques are brutal, but no more brutal than nature itself.

    I use ancient techniques of trapping myself, game trail set snare type, dead fall type, stout snare type, etc. etc. I have eaten pack rats, mice, bugs, rabbits, fowl, upland, dog, muskrat, spider, badger, squirrel, deer, elk, buffalo, the larger game I took with my own bow and arrows, hand made them myself.. I respect and have used these types of systems most of my life. I was taught them by my grandfather.

    The white man has always hated me, I am used to it.. I am Apache and Lakota. I moved to Idaho after my 12 years in the Navy keeping you safe, or so I thought. I made special operations for eight years and did Hell Week Twice.. I gold mined with a friend in South America after words and became wealthy, I now live on my 200 acres in Idaho. Hunting, trapping occasionally, and training horses for white people who do not understand their horse..

    My son has been killed in Afghanistan, he was a Ranger, I tried to keep him from going into the Military, but he had the way of the Warrior about him, unfortunately inherited from me, and he ignored his father, My daughter is a Doctor of Veterinary Medicine, 18 years now. She curses my hunting as well..

    I left the Arizona home behind many years ago, they hated my as my mother was Lakota. The Lakota hated me because my father was Jicarilla. I hated them for being lazy drunken fools with pot bellies.. I joined the Marines.. I am also a mechanical engineer, specialized in miniature hydro electric plants. I retired at 48.

    I never drink the white mans poisons known as beer or whiskey. I am a lean 180, and six foot.. I have traveled horse back in three Wilderness Areas covering 40 thousand miles in twenty years.. Now since I spoke of my son the tears still streaming down my cheeks, I must go sit at his grave.. Finish off my ancestors ways if you please.. The white man destroys every thing he touches.

    It was not I that resorted to words of violence in this thread. I hope you all find peace..

  189. Kokanee says:

    Another point you dog lovers seem to forget is how cruel it is that you feed your dog what. Dog food of course how many millions of animals does it take to feed the “gazillion dogs” that are owned in the U.S.,it only seems that you are concerned with the welfare of undomesticated critters yet you allow others to be slaughtered continually just to feed Fido.

    Anthropomorphism is giving animals human attributes it has been around for a long time and is rooted in paganism. Some of the very people that are trying to protect the animals from humans want to give them lawyers by proxy how is this not insane. You simply cannot put human emotions into animals consciousness.

  190. James Robinson says:

    Hawk writes:

    “It was not I that resorted to words of violence in this thread. I hope you all find peace..”

    Kokanee writes:

    “Another point you dog lovers seem to forget is how cruel it is that you feed your dog what. Dog food”

    Okay so (a) my words are violence and (b) dog food is cruel.

    Ummmm… Earth to Hawk and Kokanee.

    But inflicting pain on little mammals is part of the great wheel of life or what the hell ever?

    You guys are just out to lunch. Hyper dramatic, silly, and deluded.

    I also think you’re mostly lying about your biographies.

  191. Kokanee says:

    Apparently you believe that I care what your opinion of me is. The dog food analogy was to bring to light that millions of animals are slaughtered for consumption by Fido, but this is not cruel ?

  192. James Robinson says:

    Also, the reason I think you’re making those biographies up is this:

    You’re wasting time debating us in this absurd little comment thread.

    Dudes who have done what you said you have done would have much better things to do.

    This doesn’t say much about my life, or lack thereof; but I’m not claiming to be impressive and dramatic.

    Just a geek pointing the pointless cruelty of trapping.

  193. Kokanee says:

    I have lot’s of free time thank you. Your quote is obviously not for drama or accolades from your peers “And I work at Schucks Auto Supply. I am a retard!”

    By NOFREEDOM, 12-08-09
    OH JAMES YOU ARE WONDERFUL…..no one could have said it better!!!

    James you liken my trapping to a sadistic killer who does it for the sheer joy. Yet you cannot admit you are human and no doubt have used animals in cruel countless ways albeit unknown to you.

  194. CJ ROLPHE says:

    James, they don’t have anything else to do. They are not trying to impress us, they are trying to make excuses for their caveman intellect. Maybe this is their way of appeasing their “gods” as they obviously have no real God in their lives. I would bet their children and wives hate what they stand for, if they stand for anything other than trapping. They try hard to make you believe that they are losing a “freedom”. Isn’t it interesting that they are worried about their “freedom” to mutilate any animals caught in their vicious traps but they are not interested in the “freedom” of the animals or those of us that fight for that freedom (not to mention our freedom on public lands). Oh and Real Mike, you are absolutely right. They wouldn’t have time to be idiots on this post or on the Beacon if they had anything else to do which they don’t. I am a 68 year old woman and i hike (retired) twice a day every day in a lot of different areas. I take a lot of pics too which is a great way to spend retirement. I have three dogs and they are always with me OFF LEASH and I have that right! You do not have the MORAL right to threaten my existence or my animals existence with your traps. You do not have the MORAL right to mangle creatures in your traps on LAND THAT IS ALSO MINE! Since we are talking PUBLIC, I am PUBLIC! You do not have the right to threaten me with your traps. It is not the law yet but NEXT YEAR IT WILL BE!!!

  195. CJ ROLPHE says:

    KOK there is animal cruelty in every facet of life, as well as human cruelty. If i had the ability to stop all of it I would. I would stop the war, I would stop the starvation, I would stop the person that ties their dog in the back yard in this weather, or any weather for that matter! I would stop parents from beating or abusing their children or wives. I would stop it all, along with a lot of others I have not mentioned. However, since MY DOG got caught in a trap, I am now focused on YOU. I will stop YOU along with the rest of the knuckledragers that believe this BLOOD SPORT is acceptable in our society. I may choose to move on to something else when this bill passes, I don’t know yet. Maybe it will be getting drunks off our highways, maybe it will be reducing the number of hunting permits so our deer can regenerate (that should get you) or maybe it will be to stop cutting down trees so our planet can regenerate (there’s another one for ya)! But right now it is trapping and those of us (and there are more than you can believe) that are against it, will continue to get our signatures and stop this BLOOD SPORT by cavemen like you!

  196. CJ ROLPHE says:

    Hawk you are a perfect example of a man who hates his heritage and himself.

  197. Karen says:

    I am appalled by the rudeness exhibited by both sides of this argument.

    I believe that most hunters – trappers and fisherman are enthusiasts of nature. Many know more about the natural world than the average Joe.

    Laws will never be effective for those who choose to ignore them, are ignorant, or are otherwise assholes. They’re certainly useless if they cannot be enforced.

    I wish half this much attention was focused on the abuse of PEOPLE. In Montana it is a felony the third time you hit your dog, but you can hit your wife four times before it becomes a felony. Why?

    Most of you would be appalled by the things people do to their own children. Most of these crimes are pleaded out and the offenders are never sent to jail let alone put on the violent offenders registry.

    I have been witness to children forced to wear dog collars and eat out of bowls, beaten, burned, tortured, abandoned, and starved. Thrown in bathtubs with live eels, raped as babies or young children and unlike trappers, I guarantee you that everyone reading this knows someone who has participated in this behavior or has been a victim themselves.

    The debate on child abuse rarely garners as much attention as the abuse of animals. What a shame.

  198. Kokanee says:

    Could not agree more online debates often turn ugly I am guilty as charged. My apology to any I may have offended with my perspective of truth. I do have empathy for those who have had trouble with traps. I will be more vigilant in educating my brethren to the dangers we present to our neighbors however I will be expecting for those out there to be a little more watchful as well.
    Happy Trails and Holiday Greetings

  199. Mr. Twister says:

    Couldn’t agree more Karen, the stupid whining that goes on here makes me sick. It amazes me what motivates the richest people on the planet. I have long felt that many middle aged ladies would step over a starving child to fed a worthless feral cat.
    If this trapping issue ever gets on the ballot I have enough faith yet in the human race that I will give $500 to the first “footloose” clown that shows up on the courthouse steps in Hamilton the morning after if this turkey passes. In the meantime this thread needs to die.

  200. CJ ROLPHE says:

    kAREN & TWISTER, perhaps you did not read my first post above dated 12/09. I said all these things and more. I also said that right now this is my direction and I am not a rich middle aged woman. I will help a starving anything, including babies and feral cats. I you both think this is a useless project then for heaven’s sake go back to your little holes and stay out of it. You are both rude and whinny. When you stand up for a cause let me know and I am sure I can get our group to stand behind you. Until then just go away!

  201. Karen says:

    C.J.

    I did read your post. I also happen to be the owner of Rontu who was caught in the leg hold trap and is the subject of this story.

    What upsets me is the rabidness of the extremists on both ends of this argument and the vehemence that I rarely see exhibited when it comes to the abuse of children.

    I apologize for offending you, but you do yourself no favors by your rude generalizations.

    If you really want to make a difference it might behoove you to listen to the “Enemy”.

    Oh, and I happen to be a middle age woman who does not hunt or trap. I also happen to volunteer for the Humane Society.

  202. Mr. Twister says:

    The offer still stands C.J.

  203. jay says:

    Twister reminds me of Lester Maddox of Georgia…

  204. jed says:

    I’m betting CJ thinks Jim Crow was a shining example of our heritage.

  205. Beargrass says:

    This animal died because of its owner’s stupidity,” Bill Hawk, the trapper who set the trap, told The Daily Inter Lake. The dog should have been on a leash, he added, and he pointed out that he had been a trapper since the 1960s and had trapped for five years in the area where Buddy died.
    Even to a casual observer, they argued, the actions of trapper Bill Hawk were hard to justify.

    Hawk claimed to be using the trap for pine marten, a small, almost catlike mammal found in forests around the West. But seasoned trappers like Krause and others say a Conibear 220 is a beaver trap or a raccoon trap, too big for marten. Moreover, 220s are typically set in or under water for beaver. They are not used with bait to entice an animal, but rather are placed along the path where a raccoon or beaver might pass. Hawk had placed his trap, baited with chicken, less than a dozen paces from the middle of a popular public road.
    My reaction is that this trapper was either inexperienced, unethical or ignorant,” says Krause, who has an estimated 44 years of trapping experience. Each year, he takes 50-60 pine martens in the Bridger Teton and Shoshone national forests near his home in Riverton, Wyo.

    “It was the wrong trap, wrong bait, wrong place,” he says.

    Pine martens are typically trapped with a Conibear 120 – a much smaller trap than a 220 – in old-growth forest far from development. Krause says he’s invented a system of trapping marten that avoids catching dogs, magpies, jays and scavenging raptors. He sets traps in an 18×8-inch box with the trap at the entrance and bait inside the box. Perhaps most importantly, this system is intended to be used in remote locations.

    You catch marten 50 miles from town,” says Krause.

    Not only should you not be trapping martens Hawk but your a lazy, lousy trapper much like claud dallas was. You guys have so much in common. Not even other trappers can justify your illegal, lazy approach to trapping. Your pathetic hawk you really are.

  206. CJ says:

    Yes Karen, I am rabid about this. Perhaps if you look at the trapping sites and watch a few trapping videos on youtube, you would be more affected than you are. I will not back down from anything I have said regarding knuckledragger trappers. Watch the videos karen and then tell me you don’t get it. Our dogs were lucky! We were there. Other dogs have not been so lucky or there owners had to sit and watch them die in their arms. If you have no passion for this then that is your choice. I do and will continue the struggle to get this bill passed.

    As for Jed…here is what I have to say to you: I was in the Air Force probably before you were born. In Charleston South Carolina. My best friends were black and we couldn’t go anywhere together in town accept the dress shop! If we went thru a drivethru like MacDonalds in those days, she had to duck down on the floorboard of the car so she couldn’t be seen, they wouldn’t serve her. I could go to the BLACK restaurant in town but they could not go anywhere with me except to the bus station and even then we were looked at with disgust! My commander tried to force me to stop being friends with them and when i would not, they gave me an article 15 and i lost a strip! I didn’t care!!! They were from Detroit and I even went and spent New Years with them and had a ball. So buster, don’t tell me about Jim Crow…you have no idea what it was like seeing “WHITE MEN” “WHITE WOMEN” “COLORED” restrooms! It was as disgusting as trapping is today. And shows nothing has changed!!! Laws protect the blacks from discrimination but NOTHING protects animals and children from abuse! Wonder how many black trappers there are today????? That would be interesting to find out.

  207. Karen says:

    C.J.

    Since my dog was trapped I have gotten quite an education on the subject of trapping in the state of Montana. I visited the Footloose website as well as the Montana Trapping Associations web site, which frankly has more horrific video and pictures than Footloose.

    In addition to educating myself on the internet I have personally spoken to several game wardens, as well as others. I would never want anyone’s animal to suffer such a horrible death.

    I was indeed naive about Montana’s trapping laws and certainly the issue should be addressed. However –

    Your statement to me was:

    “Go back to your little holes and stay out of it. You are both rude and whinny.”

    C.J. your patronizing comments and lack of manners, as well as your inability to know when an apology is called for sadly undermines your position of strength and tells me you lack the integrity to move your position forward.

    As Kokanee said, “you cannot even see that we could be allies but you choose to alienate everyone that does not agree with your exact agenda”

    A wise man once said, “An eye for an eye will leave us all blind”.

  208. CJ says:

    Karen, I did not know who you were when you wrote: I am appalled by the rudeness exhibited by both sides of this argument.

    I believe that most hunters – trappers and fisherman are enthusiasts of nature. Many know more about the natural world than the average Joe.

    And lastly: “you lack the integrity”

    Since I did not know who you were and you had the audacity to say the above AFTER having your dog caught in a trap, I do not feel I owe you an apology. I am against trappers. I am against any being (not human) that abuses animals or children. If you find me to “rabid” for you so be it. I do not find this a pleasant way to spend my aged years having to go toe to toe with knuckledraggers, but so be it. I am sorry you find me offensive but in order to communicate with these cavemen, I am from the old school, you get in my face and I will get right back in yours. I am an old lady, yes a lady, but by GOD I will not back down from putting these idiots in their place….so having said all I need to say, I am done with this thread. I can only hope that the many of you that support this issue will sign the petitions so this bill, that is badly needed, will get on the ballot. May you all have a peaceful Christmas, I know I will and I know I am doing my best.

  209. jed says:

    Woman or man–the social span on this forum seems heavily weighted toward those lacking much bulge above a serpent brain…

  210. Beargrass says:

    Hawk I had you confused with another hawk my apologies.
    I had not read you last post. You remind me of my good friend George a combat vietnam veteran, gold miner, Mtn Man in the Feather River country. A good man and outdoorsman, who volunteerd in the draft after his best friend was drafted; but thats not the issue here. The issue is trapping reform in MT which is badly needed. We both like Wolverines, in Idaho there are still a lot more than in MT, i’d like to still be able to see on in MT some day as well as pine martens,fishers and lynx.

  211. PJ says:

    Well here is the first problem. Do you know there is a leash law for dogs?? The simple fact is that in most cases when pets are caught in traps it is because they were allowed to run free.
    Second of all Johnathan I don’t believe your story. C’mon I mean an unmarked trap, a trap not dyed, a trap reset before you even returned………Man this has all the makings of a Hollywood PETA movie.

    I have trapped for 32 years now in Montana and yes Johnathan even in your county. I have seen the debate coming from footloose montana and yes I know about the up and coming trapping ban to be voted on this next election. Yes I know the person who typed it up. Yes I know the secretary / treasurer of the footloosemontana organization.

    This story of yours is nothing but a ploy to gain support leading into the elections.

    I still say your story is bs…..but then again I trapped for 32 years so I know the mindset of a trapper……however I will give you this. In most cases excluding you letting your dog roam free it is a beginner trapper at fault. Just like Montana implimented an archery training course back in the late 90’s and just like we have to take a bear identification test, I think we ALL should have to take a trapping ethics, rules, regulations and proper setting procedures and placement course before we can trap. I’d back you 100 percent on that but this crappy dime store novel of yours about your experience with your dog in a trap just ain’t going to cut it with me. Your dog could just have easily had a run in with a wolf, coyote or other free roaming dog looking for a fight. Just remember that next time you decide to take your dog off the leash

  212. PJ says:

    Well i finally had a chance to read all of the responces and I must say coyote trapper is the only one making any sense and telling the truth. If you guys would look close at that trap it looks to be a #3 Bridger………roughly $175 a dozen on the net. Jaws are not laminated and the double springs are missing. What they are calling rust on the top outer edges of the jaw yet not on the pan…….c’mon that’s preschool stuff right there. The base and the pan are going to rust first. That looks to be a cat tail used to set off the trap cause we darn sure don’t have bamboo around here…….nothing else going to crush like that. Beginner trappers spend as little money as possible to get started. There are 2 places in town to buy traps. One sells Duke traps at $12 a piece and the other sells these Bridgers at $28 a piece. Now tell me which one a beginner would chose. Sportsman’s Warehouse is the only place in town to buy these traps and the only traps they sell!! That means these guys don’t know of the “better” place to buy traps so they bought the first one they found. The one most readily available to use as a prop for their “Hollywood scene”. The truth is almost all beginner trappers eben know to dye and wax a trap and some attempt would have been made. Looks to me like the joke was on us, the trappers but it is backfiring on them.

  213. JH says:

    After going through all of this I am a little shocked by the smoke and mirrors going on here. I should post a story about a young child getting mauled while hiking by a dog that was not on its leash. The people supporting this BS will be the same people calling MFWP because of animals invading thier space if this trapping crap goes through. The simple fact of the matter is this story is BS. I will admit that there should be a class that is manditory for all trappers to take and pass a test at the end. Hell have a PETA Rep come in at the end of the test and try to detoure all of the trappers with stories like this one. Instead of trying to change one of the last great wild places to suit your self why not focus your attention on educating the sportsman and women. Not all trappers are in it for the money. For some it is a part of life passed down generation to generation. Most of those families are hard working blue collar Americans. Not out shooting up schools, robbing stores or getting thier fix everyday at the exspence of anyone. Here in Montana we should focus more on keeping our citys clean and drug free for our kids. In closing I do thank you for bringing this to my attention and I will get all I know to vote against your bill. If it does pass. You will most likely see way more unidentified new traps poping up all over. Jonathan you ducted out of this one pretty fast. Did it feel wierd buying that trap for that picture? You started a fire then ran away and stood back to watch it burn.

  214. Jonathan Weber says:

    You folks are out of your minds. The trap is currently in the hands of FWP enforcement, Missoula office, you are free to call them and ask if it was new out of the box.

    I hadn’t paid much attention to trapping as an issue before this incident. Now, though, I understand very well the vehemence of Footloose and other anti-trapping activists. If PJ and JH and some of the other cowardly, anonymous “trappers” on this thread are remotely representative of trappers – and I honestly hope they are not – then they surely deserve to have their pastime outlawed. The eagerness to blame the victim, to make this about the hazards that dogs encounter in the woods, to accuse the reporter of being a fabricator – all shamefully irresponsible reactions.

    It’s really pretty simple: there is no defense for traps set next to trails that are frequently used by people & their pets, or for traps set illegally (this one was both). Anyone who can’t get that common-sense concept through their heads needs to take a long walk in the woods and try to figure out what is wrong with their brain.

    With that, I am shutting down this comment thread. Anyone who wants to discuss this further is free to email me at jonathan@newwest.net or call our office. I’m tired of providing a platform for people to call me a liar and advance nonsensical arguments that insult the intelligence of any thinking Montanan.