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Home » Church & State (c104) » On Mitt Romney’s Chances in 2008
By all accounts, Mitt Romney is a whip-smart man of integrity with unique skills and qualities that would seem a perfect fit for the presidency. He is well liked and respected on both sides of the aisle and is widely considered a good man, but his potential bid for the presidency in 2008 just might force the GOP to deal with some major underlying tension between its devoted Mormon and evangelical bases.

On Mitt Romney’s Chances in 2008

By all accounts, Mitt Romney is a whip-smart man of integrity with unique skills and qualities that would seem a perfect fit for the presidency. He is well liked and respected on both sides of the aisle and is widely considered a good man, but his potential bid for the presidency in 2008 just might force the GOP to deal with some major underlying tension between its devoted Mormon and evangelical bases.

Mormons overwhelmingly vote Republican, gave 95 percent of their vote to George W. Bush in the 2004 election and share the religious right’s goals concerning “traditional family values.” However, they soon may face some tough decisions about their political loyalties if their evangelical brothers choose to dismiss Romney principally because of his religious beliefs.

Most traditional religions reject the validity of Mormon baptisms, but few religions are as critical of the Latter-day Saint faith as evangelical and fundamentalist Christian groups. They have repeatedly labeled Mormonism as a “cult” and take every opportunity to deride the LDS church through written and widely distributed literature. Put most plainly, fundamentalist Christians, when not pandering to Mormons for votes against gay marriage, abortion and stem-cell research, do not believe that Mormons are Christian at all. Moreover they deem Mormonism a “false religion” and their members guilty of blasphemy.

According to an asked by the Atlantic Monthly whether he thought that Romney’s Mormonism would hurt him in a national campaign said it best, “The answer is no,” he said, “we’ve moved on. That died with my brother Jack.”

About Tracy Medley

Comments

  1. Larry says:

    Being Mormon alone doesnt disqualify in Republican primary but in race with many others more conservative socially and simply Protestant, fundamentalists won’t head to Romney early. Being perceived as a flip-floper on abortion also hurts him. But if Allen and others the fundamentalist back dont make top 2 or 3 by South Carolina and they are left with a choice of McCain, Giulani and maybe Romney he could be considered the preferred remaining choice to fundamentalist leaders. But probably not to the voters, especially southern voters. I assume the race is McCain’s to lose.

  2. Tracy Medley says:

    Romney’s position on abortion has neither a flip nor a flop.
    He has repeatedly stated that while he is personally against abortion, he has no intention of changing the law as it stands.

    I never thought that after falling asleep during the address he gave at my 1999 college graduation that I would ever be defending this guy…and I should state that I pretty much disagree with all of his political views…but, after all the reading I did, I couldn’t deny that he is at least perceived as an honorable and decent dude.

  3. murphy says:

    Tracy,

    This article is a concise and outstanding summary of the potential divide evangelicals draw with mormons, as well as the stress this will put on Romney’s candidacy. I’m even further impressed by your lack of spin or misrepresentation, given that you disagree with so many of Romney’s political views.

    My hope is that voters will judge Romney on his character and track record, and NOT on an unconstitutional religious litmus test. I’d be very happy with more voters like you who disagree with him on substance and not theology.

  4. Jerry says:

    1.God was once a man.
    2.A man can become god.
    3.Each world has it’s own god.
    4.We all were spirit children fathered by the god of this world.
    5.The god of this world came to earth and had intercourse with Mary (incest? was not Mary his “spirit child?) and that’s where Jesus came from.
    6.There are three levels of heaven (If you are not Mormon you automaticely go to the lowest level)
    7.Jesus paid the price for attonement when he sweated drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane.
    8.When Jesus died on the cross he FAILED.
    ——————————————
    THIS IS MORMONISM, WHAT PART SOUNDS LIKE CHRISTIANITY TO YOU?
    ——————————————

  5. murphy says:

    Jerry,

    You’ve provided an excellent example of what Tracy was talking about when she says:

    “They have repeatedly labeled Mormonism as a “cult” and take every opportunity to deride the LDS church through written and widely distributed literature”

    Your post is grossly innacurate and offensive on points #3, #5, #6, and #8. Most of the remaining points are over-simplified. You are either misinformed (possibly no fault of your own), or you are a misinformant (some major character flaws).

  6. Jerry says:

    Oh yes, Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan.

  7. Jerry says:

    If#1,#2,#4,#7 are correct Mormonism is still not Christianity. Mormonism IS a cult.

  8. murphy says:

    That “spirit brother of Satan” one is yet another example of oversimplification.

    Here’s the actual doctrine: All people previously, currently, or yet to inhabit this Earth are spiritual children of God. Furthermore, the 1/3 host of heaven which followed satan (including satan) are also spiritual children of God. Basically EVERYONE (good or bad) is His spiritual offspring (not to be confused with His only begotten).

    Jerry has twisted it to sound quite different from the actual doctrine. Although this is a unique doctrine to the LDS church, doctrinal uniqueness is not an automatic “cult status”. When these rabid people try to say “you’re not Christian but I am”, it’s an arbitrary and emotional accusation. Also notice how quickly he backed down from the most obvious lies (as he knew them to be).

    Here’s a funny cartoon on the subject:

    http://www.fairlds.org/Humor/Another_Expert_Weighs_In.html

  9. Jerry says:

    ALL eight statements are Mormon doctrine.

  10. Jerry says:

    Tell me honestly how many gods are there in Mormonism, and don’t say there is only one god of this world.

  11. Chris says:

    Yeah… that’s it, no one’s a Christian unless a Baptist says so.

    Seriously, the only thing a Baptist has authority to define is what being a Baptist is, and I will agree, Mormons are not Baptists.

    (And no Jerry your wrong, Murphy’s right, 3,5,6 & 8 are not Mormon doctrine so you can stop trying to define Mormonism too.)

    I asked a Baptist once how they decided who was Christian and who wasn’t. He said that those who believe in the Trinity (i.e Father, Son & Holy Ghost are all one composite being)are Christians and those that don’t aren’t. I guess that’s something that they have in common with most other protestants and Catholics. But since that doctrine was only ratified by the Catholic church around 300 AD (and it was controversial at the time) that surpised me. I would have thought the standard would be a belief in the divinity of Christ and a reliance on his atonement.

    Anyway, it will be interesting in the upcoming primarys to see what proportion of evangelicals are like Jerry, and what proportion simply want to find a decent candidate of any stripe.

  12. Jerry says:

    You didn’t answer the question, so I will answer it for you. You don’t know because “…as man is God once was, as God is man can become…” There could be hundreds, there could be thousands, there could be millions, who knows? If every Mormon made his destination of becoming god and populating his own world how many would there be?
    ————————————————-
    Book of Mormon, Alma 11:26-29 “And Zeezrom said unto him; Thou sayest there is a true and living God? And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said:Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.

  13. murphy says:

    Jerry,

    Nice try painting mormons as polytheistic. We worship the one and only God the Father and His son (our savior) Jesus Christ. Our belief in man’s potential to become more like god in the here-after is in no conflict with this.

    Anyone’s free to disagree with the LDS beliefs about deification. But stop telling me what I believe when you’re no expert.

    Next you ought to try the one about the horns in our heads.

  14. murphy says:

    Chris,

    I expect that the huge bulk of evangelicals realize that 2008 is about electing our next president, NOT about electing a minister.

    While folks like Jerry may think that theological doctrines matter in selecting the next head of state, the important thing to Americans in a president is well summarized in the following two mormon beliefs (Articles of Faith):

    11. “We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.”

    12. “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.”

    These two beliefs are essential in a president. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln’s Lyceum Address,

    “America has a political religion and people who are elected to office must subscribe to this political religion, which is to place the oath of office, an oath to abide by a nation of laws and the Constitution, above all others”

  15. Jerry says:

    But was there a god before this God the Father you worship?

  16. murphy says:

    Jerry,

    I believe there was. But we don’t worship him. A previous god is completely outside my concern. From my point of view, God (whom I worship) is “from the beginning to the end”. And seeing as the Bible was written for our benefit, I’m not surprised that it’s silent on the matter.

    Feel free to disagree. But stop trying to tear down other peoples’ beliefs. You seem interested in nothing but spreading lies (when you can) and beating people over the head with your beliefs (when you can’t get away with lies). Are you familiar with the phrase “by their fruits you shall know them”? I’m getting to know what you stand for pretty fast.

  17. Jason says:

    Great article, I will link to it on my blog.

    Also, to Larry: I thank you for your comments. I hope some day you can learn that attacking a religion is pretty much a waste time. You might find a person who will fall for your line of half truth telling, but I think for most people any respect for you or your beliefs generally is deflated by your mode of attacking, a.k.a.”proselyting.”

    I generally dont spend time arguing my beliefs with people, and I am not going to now. But I have thoroughly and honestly investigated every claim by the anti’s from the old ones to new ones, and it all pretty much has convinced me that every anti-mormon tactic revolves around leaving out 99% of the story and focusing on points that can be easily sensationalized. Basically your brand of anti-mormonism is to Christianity what the Enquirer is to literature.

    I am sure you’ll have some snappy response, so I will let you have the last word.

    Jason Bonham
    http://www.illinoisans4mitt.blogspot.com

  18. murphy says:

    Jerry,

    When I said “the Bible is silent on the matter”, I meant that the Bible makes no mention of other gods. Clearly, the Bible makes plenty mention of our God.

    Thank you for the beautiful scriptural references (and I say that without sarcasm). I’ve read them all before, and I read them again now just for you. Several of them are particular favorites of mine. I understand how you can interpret them as you do. I interpret them differently based on many scriptures outside that limited list of yours.

    However, my main points are unchanged. You can’t just label millions of followers of Christ as cultists because of arbitrary doctrinal differences, or because of differences in interpretation of scripture.

    If you simply can’t be placated, I’d suggest we bring your proselytization outside of this blog, as it is derailing the whole thrust of the author’s article. At the very least it would educate you as to what mormons really do believe.

  19. mike says:

    Re: “Oh yes, Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan.”

    Jerry. Did God create everything, or was Satan around before God? Just as long? You call God your father because he created you. If God created Satan isn’t he his father?

    Didn’t God create Hitler? Why is it offensive to you to think that a parent can have a good child and a bad child? Father Adam had Cane and Able.

    So the question to you Mr. Angry pants is who created Satan?

  20. Tracy Medley says:

    Wow! If this is any indication of the debate to come, my republican friends are going to need some aspirin.

  21. LH says:

    It is impossible to put into words the full meaning of the Atonement, which is the most important event in the history of the world. Through His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross, the Savior atoned for our sins. This is the good news for all people!

    We can’t fully understand how Jesus suffered for our sins. But we know that in the Garden of Gethsemane, the weight of our sins caused Him to feel such agony that He bled from every pore (Luke 22:39–44).

    Later, as He hung upon the cross, Jesus willingly suffered painful death by one of the most cruel methods ever known.

    The Savior tells us:

    For behold, I . . . have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer . . . even as I. [Doctrine and Covenants 19:16–17]

    Jesus Christ did what only He could do in atoning for our sins. To make His Atonement fully effective in our individual lives, we must have faith in Christ, repent of our sins, be baptized, receive the Holy Ghost, obey God’s commandments, and strive to become like Him. As we do these things through His Atonement, we can return to live with Him and our Heavenly Father forever.

  22. murphy says:

    Um, yes.

    That would be why I was steering clear of the doctrinal debate. Being fully aware of the utter scriptural smack-down that could be served Jerry (John 10:34 being perhaps the most blatant example), I mostly wanted to avoid chasing away the non-theologian crowd.

  23. LH says:

    “The Lord works from the inside out. The world works from the outside in. The world would take people out of the slums. Christ takes the slums out of people, and then they take themselves out of the slums. The world would mold men by changing their environment. Christ changes men, who then change their environment. The world would shape human behavior, but Christ can change human nature.”
    — Ezra Taft Benson, “Born of God,” Ensign, July 1989, 2 (13th President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints)

  24. Maw says:

    Tracy – you never cease to amaze me. A mother couldn’t be prouder! Keep up the good work. “Stir it up; little darlin stir it up!”

  25. murphy says:

    In reading over that last post of mine, I hope it didn’t come off as too negative.

    Myclob, it was a very nice smackdown you gave, and I’ll be using parts of your lists for my own personal references.

    I’m still resting with my statement that people who won’t vote for a mormon are part of a very loud ultra-minority.

  26. William says:

    I guess all of the early Christians were cultists as well. Here is a gem from Saint Irenaeus:

    “Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, “I have said, ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.” … For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.”

    I can show you dozens more from Saint Clement, Origen, Cyril, and plenty more. Are you ready to disqualify all of those men as Christians, or are you going to accept the completely Biblical doctine of deification?

  27. Jerry says:

    Your religion rests on the shoulders of one man, Joseph Smith. Here is a Quote:”Come on! ye proprosecutors!ye false swearers! All hell, boil over! Ye burning mountains, roll down your lava! for I will come out on the top at last. I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor JESUS ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”

  28. murphy says:

    Jerry,

    Are you claiming that a whole religion is false because its founder Joseph Smith made a boastful statement (which he later repented of)?

    Are you actually serious? I didn’t think you could possibly sound any more desperate in your attacks.

    While Smith’s statement WAS true, it was still prideful boasting. Nobody ever claimed he was a perfect man (as Jesus Christ was the only perfect man). Surely you’re aware of the fact that God calls imperfect men to be his prophets.

    Spare me the litany of Joseph’s human faults, along with the tangential “proofs” of him not being a prophet. You don’t have a leg to stand on. And be thankful that mormons don’t attack your religious beliefs like you attack ours.

  29. Jerry says:

    Mike S. Adams says at the end of his column that Mormons have made Joeseph Smith out to be God.
    ————————————————http://www.townhall.com/opinion/column/mikeadams/2006/06/07/200201.html
    ————————————————

  30. Larry says:

    So unlike his 1994 position, he now believes the law should be such that in probably 90+% of cases woman would no longer be free to make their own choice whether to seek a legal abortion.Including a young woman in a situation similar to that dear close relative in the past for whom there was no indication that she would have qualified for a special case legal abortion.

    That is a significant change.

    Of course many politicians have changed their views on abortion. He doesnt deny that his views have changed some recently, the debate is just how much.

  31. Jerry says:

    There have been 4000 (more or less) changes to the Book Of Mormon,”the most correct book ever written”, since it was first published in 1830.
    If you would like to see the 1830 edition next to the changes in today’s Book of Mormon go to:
    ————————————————http://www.mazeministry.com/
    ————————————————

  32. Eric says:

    Freedom of choice in religion.
    One person’s true way may be perceived to another as a false path.
    Prefer that folks focus on their own beliefs and be civil; but there is also some freedom to read/think/speak about other religions. It can useful, sometimes promoting tolerance, understanding, co-existence. But it can drift negative too. Way negative. State your beliefs or nonbeliefs to those willing to discuss them jointly but once you know you disagree fundamentally there isnt much point to an extended heated dispute except to those who enjoy that sort of thing, perhaps a little too much.

  33. Jerry says:

    The truth is that Mormons are trying to convince Christians that the Bible is not complete, that they need a living prophet, that all churches are an abomination to God, accepted LDS. They send out 60,000 missionaries a year to do this. (Have you had some knock on your door?) Further, Joseph Smith was a false prophet, a murder, a thief, a liar, and many people are following him straight to Hell. WAKE UP PEOPLE!!!

  34. Jerry says:

    Oh yes, there was one other Mormon who wanted to be President of the United States of America. You quest it, JOSEPH SMITH. Once elected, he wanted to declare himself King.

  35. Myclob says:

    re: “The truth is that Mormons are trying to convince Christians that the Bible is not complete”

    I was a Mormon missionary, but I never shared with anyone the scriptures I am about to share with you, because in the Words of Wilford Woodruf, ” * When you go into a neighborhood to preach the Gospel, never attempt to tear down a man’s house, so to speak, before you build him a better one; never, in fact, attack any one’s religion, wherever you go. Be willing to let every man enjoy his own religion. It is his right to do that. If he does not accept your testimony with regard to the Gospel of Christ, that is his affair, and not yours. Do not spend your time in pulling down other sects and parties. We haven’t time to do that. It is never right to do that.”
    Contributor, August 1895, pp.636–37.

    But the Bible is not complete. It’s not like it is something we try to convince people, unless they say, “Elder I believe the Bible is complete, do you have any scriptures that might show otherwise.”

    Anyways, here are the scriptures…

    http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/scrptrsl

    # Ex. 24: 7

    7 And he took the book of the acovenant, and breadӢ in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be cobedient.

    # Num. 21: 14

    14 Wherefore it is said in the abook of the wars of the LORD, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,

    # Josh. 10: 13

    13 And the asunӢ stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of bJasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.

    # 2 Sam. 1: 18

    18 (Also he bade them ateachӢ the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of bJasher.)

    # 1 Sam. 10: 25

    25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the akingdom, and bwrote it in a cbook, and laid it up before the LORD. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.

    # 1 Kgs. 11: 41

    41 ¶ And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the abook of the acts of Solomon?

    # 1 Chr. 29: 29

    29 Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of aNathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the bseer,

    # 2 Chr. 9: 29

    29 ¶ Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of aNathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the bseer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?

    # 2 Chr. 12: 15

    15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of aShemaiahӢ the prophet, and of Iddo the bseer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.

    # 2 Chr. 13: 22

    22 And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in the story of the prophet aIddo.

    # 2 Chr. 20: 34

    34 Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of aJehu the son of Hanani, who is mentioned in the book of the kings of Israel.

    # 2 Chr. 33: 19

    19 His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the asayings of the seers.

    # Matt. 2: 23

    23 And he came and dwelt in a city called aNazarethӢ: that it might be fulfilled which was bspoken by the prophets, He shall be called a cNazareneӢ.

    # 1 Cor. 5: 9

    9 I wrote unto you in an aepistle not to bcompanyӢ with cfornicatorsӢ:

    # Eph. 3: 3

    3 How that by revelation he made aknownӢ unto me the mystery; (as I bwrote afore in few words,

    # Col. 4: 16

    16 And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the aepistle from Laodicea.

    # Jude 1: 3

    3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to awrite unto you of the common bsalvationӢ, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should cearnestly dcontendӢ for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

    # Jude 1: 14

    14 And aEnochӢ also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord bcomethӢ with ten thousands of his csaints,

    # 1 Ne. 13: 26

    26 And after they go forth by the ahandӢ of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews buntoӢ the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that cgreatӢ and abominable dchurch, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have etakenӢ away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are fplainӢ and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.

    # 1 Ne. 19: 10

    10 And the aGodӢ of our fathers, who were bledӢ out of Egypt, out of bondage, and also were preserved in the wilderness by him, yea, the cGodӢ of Abraham, and of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, dyieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of ewicked men, to be fliftedӢ up, according to the words of gZenockӢ, and to be hcrucifiedӢ, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a isepulchreӢ, according to the words of jZenosӢ, which he spake concerning the three days of kdarknessӢ, which should be a sign given of his death unto those who should inhabit the isles of the sea, more especially given unto those who are of the lhouseӢ of Israel.

    # 3 Ne. 10: 16

    16 Yea, the prophet aZenosӢ did testify of these things, and also Zenock spake bconcerningӢ these things, because they testified particularly concerning us, who are the remnant of their seed.

    # 2 Ne. 29: 12

    12 For behold, I shall speak unto the aJewsӢ and they shall bwrite it; and I shall also speak unto the Nephites and they shall cwriteӢ it; and I shall also speak unto the other tribes of the house of Israel, which I have led away, and they shall write it; and I shall also speak unto dallӢ nations of the earth and they shall write it.

    # Jacob 5: 1

    1 BEHOLD, my brethren, do ye not remember to have read the words of the prophet aZenosӢ, which he spake unto the house of Israel, saying:

    # Jacob 6: 1

    1 AND now, behold, my brethren, as I said unto you that I would prophesy, behold, this is my prophecy—that the things which this prophet aZenos”¢ spake, concerning the house of Israel, in the which he likened them unto a tame bolive”¢-tree, must surely come to pass.

    # Alma 32: 3

    3 Therefore they were not permitted to enter into their synagogues to worship God, being esteemed as filthiness; therefore they were poor; yea, they were esteemed by their brethren as adrossӢ; therefore they were bpoorӢ as to things of the world; and also they were poor in heart.

    # Alma 34: 7

    7 My brother has called upon the words of aZenosӢ, that redemption cometh through the Son of God, and also upon the words of bZenockӢ; and also he has appealed unto cMosesӢ, to prove that these things are true.

    # Hel. 15: 11

    11 Yea, even if they should dwindle in unbelief the Lord shall aprolong”¢ their days, until the time shall come which hath been spoken of by our fathers, and also by the prophet bZenos”¢, and many other prophets, concerning the crestoration”¢ of our brethren, the Lamanites, again to the knowledge of the truth—

    # Alma 63: 12

    12 Now behold, all those aengravingsӢ which were in the possession of Helaman were written and sent forth among the children of men throughout all the land, save it were those parts which had been commanded by Alma should bnotӢ go forth.

    # Hel. 8: 20

    20 And behold, also aZenockӢ, and also bEzias, and also cIsaiahӢ, and dJeremiahӢ, (Jeremiah being that same prophet who testified of the destruction of eJerusalemӢ) and now we know that Jerusalem was destroyed according to the words of Jeremiah. O then why not the Son of God come, according to his prophecy?

    # Ether 1: 5

    5 But behold, I give not the full account, but a apartӢ of the account I give, from the tower down until they were destroyed.

    # Ether 3: 17, 21

    17 And now, as I, Moroni, said I could anotӢ make a full account of these things which are written, therefore it sufficeth me to say that Jesus showed himself unto this man in the spirit, even after the manner and in the likeness of the same body even as he bshowedӢ himself unto the Nephites.

    Ӣ Ӣ Ӣ
    21 And it came to pass that the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt not suffer these things which ye have seen and heard to go forth unto the world, until the atimeӢ cometh that I shall glorify my name in the flesh; wherefore, ye shall btreasureӢ up the things which ye have seen and heard, and show it to no man.

    # Ether 15: 33

    33 And the Lord spake unto Ether, and said unto him: Go forth. And he went forth, and beheld that the words of the Lord had all been fulfilled; and he afinishedӢ his brecordӢ; (and the chundredthӢ part I have not written) and he hid them in a manner that the people of Limhi did find them.

    # D&C 107: 57

    57 These things were all written in the book of aEnochӢ, and are to be testified of in due time.

    # Moses 1: 41

    41 And in a day when the children of men shall esteem my words as anaught”¢ and btake”¢ many of them from the cbook”¢ which thou shalt write, behold, I will raise up another dlike”¢ unto thee; and they shall be ehad”¢ again among the children of men—among as many as shall believe.

    # Moses 6: 5

    5 And a abookӢ of bremembrance was kept, in the which was recorded, in the clanguageӢ of Adam, for it was given unto as many as called upon God to write by the spirit of dinspiration;

    # 2 Chr. 26: 22

    22 ¶ Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, awrite.

    # 1 Ne. 13: 34

    34 And it came to pass that the angel of the Lord spake unto me, saying: Behold, saith the Lamb of God, after I have avisited”¢ the bremnant of the house of Israel—and this remnant of whom I speak is the seed of thy father—wherefore, after I have visited them in judgment, and smitten them by the hand of the Gentiles, and after the Gentiles do cstumble”¢ exceedingly, because of the most plain and precious parts of the dgospel of the Lamb which have been kept back by that abominable church, which is the mother of harlots, saith the Lamb—I will be merciful unto the eGentiles in that day, insomuch that I will fbring forth unto them, in mine own power, much of my ggospel”¢, which shall be plain and precious, saith the Lamb.

    http://scriptures.lds.org/tgs/scrptrsl

  36. Myclob says:

    Jerry think deeply about these words:

    Seek by faith, prayer and humility, to obtain wisdom, and the Spirit of God to dictate in all your labours. Wisdom is one of the greatest gifts of God, and the voice of wisdom will not tell us to spend our time in warring against the sects of the day, opposing the opinions of men, ridiculing the religions that surround us, thereby cutting off the ears of the hearer; barring the hearts of men against light and truth; the opinions and religions of other men are as dear unto them as ours are unto us. . . . Let Salvation be your text, in meekness and humility, with the power of eternal truth, wisdom, light and knowledge that are hid in the first principles of the gospel of the Son of God. You can be instrumental in saving the souls of men, and they will rejoice with yourselves that they have ever beheld the light thereof; we should never get above the gospel, or leave it to preach something that is foreign to our calling; or to make strife about words to no profit; every tree is known by its fruit; if we are faithful before the Lord, pursue a wise and prudent course, good fruit will be sure to follow our labours.

    “To the Officers and Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the British Islands,” Millennial Star, February 1845, pp. 141–42.

    I’m going to use small words that you can understand. You are a a norow minded idiot. You are a bigot, and you are an ass. Work on those, and tell me how all that works out for you, ok?

  37. Lynn says:

    I have had dozens of LDS missionaries knock on my door. Years ago I mainly quickly said no thank you I am conducting own search for truth and standards to live by. In part because these kids are 18-21 and I am between 2-3 times that age and I cant seriously take revelation of universal order from someone just out of high school. I am a little annoyed new missionaries keep coming back to the same place every few months- I think they should keep lists and respect peoples right to say no thank you and not be disrupted even if it is politely.

    I wont go into the baptism of the dead and unsaved to their perspective controversy other than to say I understand their view but disagree with it and understand some find it aggressive and perhaps disrespectful. Attempts to reach an understanding
    have not lead to complete resolution.

    I’ve read some from and about the Book of Mormon, and also the skeptics and denouncers of Joeseph Smith, his past, his exalted sense of knowledge and power, his stance toward the US government, his personal choices that seem to show failings and abuses if the accounts are to be believed and honestly if I am skeptical of the church’s claims so am I about some of the accusations and know I will never know the exact truth because I wasn’t there nearly 200 yeas ago just like I wasnt elsewhere 2000 years ago, etc.

    But I also know a little of the Mormon persecutions, the migration, Brigham Young, the construction of a community in Utah more integrated into the rest of the country though still distant in some ways. But I can say that about a lot of groups of all stripes.

    I have had a few longer discussions with these polite earnest missionary visitors in recent years back and forth. Mainly I am trying to treat them with equal courtesy as fellow seekers, fellow travellers working on living right, fellow Americans. That really is just a small step in living my ethics of respect and tolerance for others. The last bunch guys who visited I tried to help them with getting around and enjoying my city during their visit here.

    We don’t have the same creed and won’t because I do not have their faith. I consider my skepticism and nonacceptance as honest and true to my own efforts and ability to understand as they to their faith and Jerry to his views. While I assume from one of his last links in particular Jerry has his own creed that his affirms and wants to spread against views he finds antithetical, I must say my skepticism and nonacceptance currently extends to any religious creed though I was raised in one and gained from it. I am appreciative of my ability to search for truth and meaning and have learned from explorations of many religions and philosophies.

    The LDS church and adherrents have and present a view, Jerry has and presents his. And I have one too and everyone else can too.

    I understand that a true believer in one path is going to see others as lost if they dont save them

  38. Lynn says:

    But they are only messengers. Ultimately it is the individual and the message or truth that meet or dont.

  39. Lynn says:

    Myclob in your last sentence, to me, you fall vicitim to the same fault you accuse Jerry of.
    But I’ve said my piece and heard enough too. Bye.

  40. Lynn says:

    Well, maybe just one more question in the spirit of learning a lttle more from others…

    Myclob in simple words what is the “abominable church” today?

    I thought I appreciated the quote from Wilford Woodruf about being “willing to let every man enjoy his own religion. It is his right to do that”. But what is the abominable church and how does the stance to it relate? Let every man enjoy his religion… even though it is abominable?
    How is that different from Jerry’s posture?

  41. Lynn says:

    “abominable church”
    but the folks can still be saved later?

    To you Jerry is wasting time bothering folks…

    meanwhile LDS tries to spread the good word… and “if we are faithful before the Lord, pursue a wise and prudent course, good fruit will be sure to follow our labours”?

    Ok I can see the contrast you are making about preferred positive messages but there are good and lesser efforts made on behalf of each religious view.

    I am all for letting example speak and people moving to it.

  42. Lynn says:

    Not wanting to wait, I can see from a search of the net for this term some discussion of what the “abominable church” is and not everyone argeeing on meaning thru time or now.

    Doctrinal complexity and sectarian conflict. A huge part of history for thousands of years.

  43. Myclob says:

    Lynn,

    You are right. I do not have the love in myself that I should have toward Jerry.

    However part of me thinks the nicest thing someone can do is tell him what a complete idiot he is. His pure hatred, which drives him to use over simplistic 3rd grade logic, this hatred that tells more about his spiritual development, that tells that he has psycological problems with his faith… Jeffy is not living the abundant life. Until he can have more understanding of other people, he will have bad relationships every were he goes. He will not have a long lasting marrage, and his kids will hate them, becasue he is incapable of seeing. He is blind. Almost the best thing for him, would to meet an angry mormon in a dark ally. He needs to hit rock bottom. Something has got to change in him or he will go to hell. I’m concerned about him, and I don’t know if anyone will ever reach him. Logic doesn’t work. Calling him on lies doesn’t work. He is past logic. He is past love. He lies to accomplish his goals.

    Christ cleaned the temple, and called people hypocrits. I know that he had more authority than I do, but part of why he came to show us an example… There is only so much a person… Well maybe not.. Christ said to forgive someone 7 times 70… But I guess I forgive Jerry. I don’t know what problems he has had in his life. But it doesn’t mean I have to let him keep being an Ass. Christ said not to judge. I think Jerry is an ass, at this point in his life. I am not saying I would be any better if I lived his life. I have no Idea. That is up to God. I know I have been an ass in my life, and so I don’t know if I am guilty of judging Jerry… What do you think?

  44. myclob says:

    I’m sorry about the nusence of the missionaries. I hated buging people as a missionary, but how else are we going to find people to talk to? I thought it was good for me to spend two years of my life talking to people about religion, the only problem is finding people who want to talk about it…

    I think that it is Sad today how many people don’t want to talk about religion… People don’t care.. In the days that my church was founded, people were always talking to their neighbors about stuff… Holding meetings in there homes… It was called the great awakining, and would have been a cool part of American history to be around in…

    This is official LDS doctrine about the great and abomanable church:

    http://scriptures.lds.org/gsd/devil

    Here is a non official explanation (it was the first thing that came up when I googled “the great and abominable church”

    http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/basic/gospel/last_days/great_abominable_eom.htm

    Here is the first paragraph as a “hook”.

    The phrase “great and abominable church,” which appears in an apocalyptic vision received by the Book of Mormon prophet Nephi1 in the sixth century B.C. (1 Ne. 13:6), refers to the church of the devil and is understood by Latter-day Saints to be equivalent to the “great whore that sitteth upon many waters” described in Revelation 17:1. This “whore of all the earth” is identified by Nephi’s brother Jacob as all those who are against God and who fight against Zion, in all periods of time (2 Ne. 10:16). Nephi did not write a detailed account of everything he saw in the vision, as this responsibility was reserved for John the apostle, who was to receive the same vision; however, Nephi repeatedly refers to its content and teachings, using various images and phrases (1 Ne. 13:4-9, 26-27, 34; 14:1-4, 9-17).

    Yes, we think people from every religion will eventually be saved. A god that sent every budhist to hell would not deserve to be worshiped, let alone respected. That is were baptism for the dead comes in. Christ is the only way to heaven, and like he told nicodemus, you can’t see the kingdom of heaven unless you are born again by the spirit, and you can’t enter unless you are babtised…

    Here is more info about baptism for the dead: http://www.lightplanet.com/mormons/temples/baptism.html

  45. William says:

    Hey Jerry, there are also plenty of responses to the lies put out by those ministries. Here is a review or “The Bible vs. the Book of Mormon”

    http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=review&id=581

    I’ll try and find a review of “DNA vs. the Book of Mormon”, but you can find plenty on the DNA issue at farms.byu.edu

    Oh, and I’d like you to respond to the quote I took from an early Christian saint who was among many who taught that men may become Gods.

    Also, concerning the changes from the first edition of the Book of Mormon. If you applied that same standard to Jeremiah, you would make him a false prophet:

    Jeremiah 36:32 (emphasis added, read 27-32 for full meaning)
    Then took Jeremiah another roll, and gave it to Baruch the scribe, the son of Neriah; who wrote therein from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the book which Jehoiakim king of Judah had burned in the fire: AND THERE WERE ADDED BESIDES UNTO THEM MANY LIKE WORDS.

    I don’t know how to bold/italicize so forgive me if it appears I am yelling.

  46. Lynn says:

    Thanks Myclob for your additional words and response links. And Jerry for yours. And to all who shared links and perspective. I have learned a little more from this testy but deeply felt exchange.

    Assertions about reforming or restoring the true church or revealing the true church and rejecting others is common to many religious groups but makes it hard for all to get along well.

    Good day to all.

  47. Jerry says:

    The fact is I love the People who have been raised Mormon or have converted to become Mormon. I have had the blessing of praying with two young men who have come out of Mormonism. They are now living their lives for the Jesus of the Bible. What makes me mad is the lies of Joseph Smith and how the LDS try so hard to convert Christians. If Mormon missionaries were honest and told the whole true about Mormonism, there would not be many Christians converting. Did you know 80% of new converts to Mormonism leave within the first year. Once they hear the part about God being an exalted man, Jesus being the spirit brother of Satan, and baptism for the dead, they figure out they have gotten involved in a cult.

  48. myclob says:

    It sound very trite to have each of us saying that we are fighting each other because we “love” each other.

    In order to love someone, you have to understand them. In order to understand someone you have to listen to them. Jerry, you have proven through your comments that you are incapable of listening to someone. You are incapable of having a rational conversation with somone, and yes, you are incapable of love. You are in capable of understanding, because you do not listen.

    You say that we are going to hell because we are Mormon. Jesus, and old testament prophits said that the first commandment is to love God with all your heart, and the second commandment is to love your fellow man. You say that we are going to hell because we belong to the wrong church. God says that the greatest commandment is Love. I say that those who have love, will go to heaven, no matter what church they belong to in this life, because of baptism for the dead. I say that you are going to hell because you are incapable of love, understanding, and the ability to listen.

    Someone who was capable of listening, would not still be saying the things that you say. Someone capable of understanding, might not agree with us, but they would at least acknoledge that there are some scriptures that make our beliefs valid. You have not responded to any of our comments, which says you are incapable of listening. You are a mouth. You have no ears. You are deaf. You are blind. You are going to hell, unless you change, unless you listen, unless you love, unless you understand, unless you think, unless you use the brain that god has given you.

    Re: “What makes me mad is the lies of Joseph Smith and how the LDS try so hard to convert Christians.” Why does that make you mad? Doesn’t the bible teach that we should all be missionaries?

    Re: “What makes me mad is the lies of Joseph Smith and how the LDS try so hard to convert Christians.” I was a Mormon missionary, are you calling me a liar? Do you know me? Have you ever met me? I went on a mission with my honest beliefs, and shared them with anyone who would listen. They spit on me, and threw beer bottles at me. Am I a liar? I am not a liar. I believe what I believe because it makes sense to me. We are not the liars. You are the liar. You are the one who keeps repeating things that are not true. For instance just one example of your many damn stupid lies that I am FREAKING mad about is this one: “When Jesus died on the cross he FAILED.” You said that is one of our beliefs. You are a piece of crap, you know that we do not believe that, and I hate you for spreading lies about my church.

  49. myclob says:

    I went and painted the garage, and the words I ended on kept going threw my mind…

    “… and I hate you for spreading lies about my church.”

    How can I justify that comment with my beliefs? My mind says, “At least I’m being honest. The way that Jerry oversimplifies, and LIES about our beliefs… the only way he could do that is if he hates us. You know the old, his hatred caused my hatred, or he started it argument, and the at least I’m not a hypocrite argument…” But then I thought that I don’t hate the sinner, I just hate the sin. I think Jerry if filled with the worst kind of sin, the self rightious sin that sees others as members of a cult, but are unable to see sin in themselves, the worst kind of sin, is the kind you can not see in yourself, the kind of salem witch trial self rightiousness that calls others sinners, the kind of sin that lead to the spanish inquisition. I hate that sin. I see it in him, and I get angry about it… But do I really hate him? I honestly don’t know him. I don’t know his age, background, location, native tonge. I don’t know what shows he watches, if he has a family, and if they love him. If I knew these things about him, I probably could not hate him. But I hate the bigot that I see, threw this lens of reading his words on the interent. I know this is not the complete jerry. I do not know the complete jerry. But I hate the one I see threw this lens. I know that is not the real him. It is just a part of him. But I hate that part of him, because I love understanding. I love what happens when people honestly listen. I love seeing things threw a new perspective. And you can’t love these things, and not hate those that destroy understanding, and cause missunderstandings…

  50. myclob says:

    Re: “I have not called one person, that has made a comment, any names.”

    You said Mormon missionaries are liars.

    Re: “If you want an honest talk, I will be back around 3:00 PM. Myclob, that Jesus, that hung on that cross, loved YOU so much that He gave his life for you.”

    Thanks for the info, you don’t sound condesending at all when you talk like that! How does that work for you? Do you make lots of friends that way?

    How about responding to one, just one thing I said?

  51. Larry says:

    Hey Jason, I didnt intend my comments as an attack on anyone. I gave my political analyis based on 28 years involvment in national, state and local campaigns.

    Let me be more clear to you by adding one word to my original post:

    “Certainly” …Being Mormon alone doesnt disqualify in Republican primary…

    Disagree with any of it as political analysis if you want but it was not an attack. Watch how the race unfolds and tell me in 21 months if I was fairly accurate or inaccurate in projecting what happens. All I did was estimate what will happen. I couldnt care less about his religious beliefs.

  52. Larry says:

    It was the article that laid out the premise that being Mormon could hurt Romney’s chances in the Republican primary and examined it. I took a turn doing the same thing and took the view that it will be tougher than the article suggests but not impossible. Ranking him as 3rd most likely to get the nomination I thought puts me down as more willing to fairly assess his campaign than many pundits and polls (currently he is listed 5th behind Newt Gingrich which is silly). I might even vote for him.

    If my word choice or the impression it created to you offended, I apolgize. I was just trying to capture the political dynamic briefly having lived in the south most of my life.

  53. Larry says:

    Jason on your website you list a number of articles that frankly discuss the politics of Romney’s chances and the political impact of his faith.

    One includes this quote: “in a 1999 Gallup poll, 17 percent of respondents said they wouldn’t vote for a presidential candidate who’s a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. ”

    In 2008 and actually voting that number may be lower (I hope so) or higher. We will know more with time.

  54. Larry says:

    Another says: “There are so many options. It’s not as if there aren’t other candidates running who share nearly identical credentials. Is he such a compelling candidate that people are willing to overlook his religious beliefs? That’s a pretty high bar.” The question isn’t whether evangelical leaders could support a Mormon, but whether they would back a Mormon over an equally appealing Protestant or Catholic Republican. It’s hard to see evangelicals lining up behind Romney instead of, say, Virginia Sen. George Allen.”

    I hadnt seen this before but it is similar to what I said.

  55. Larry says:

    More from that article:

    “But one must wonder what Romney’s best strategy is – proactive or reactive?

    If reactive, how would one counter the issue when it arises. Claims of bigotry would be counter-productive serving only to alienate the group. But the same group is also likely to be somewhat immune to arguements that “Mormons aren’t really that different.” There are very significant theological differences, if not poltiical or practical ones, and such people are making decisions largely out of theology.”

    I agree with that.

  56. Larry says:

    Jason, after thinking about it a little more, I am now guessing that when you first posted and said Larry in your comments you meant Jerry ((with your use of the terms “proselyting” which didnt make sense referring to me but I hadnt figured it out then)

    Oh well, my mistake. But it caused me to read those articles further. I would encourage others to give Mitt Romney a full read and a fair shake.

  57. Barry says:

    Republicans should be voting for a candidate that more accurately describes their love for citizens in this country. Roper ’08!!

  58. Larry says:

    From this article On Mitt Romney’s Chances in 2008

    “If Romney does make it past the evangelical snake-pit in the primary races, there is still the bigger question, looming large: Is America ready for a Mormon president?”

    Many err.
    In a stand against prejudice I’ll note that use of the term “evangelical snake-pit” seems to also err.

    Hopefully we will all work through the challenges each of us face.

  59. myclob says:

    No freaking kidding. You think I have never read the Bible before? What do you think Mormon high school students do for an hour school in Seminaries accross this country? What do you think Mormon missionaries read for 4 hours a day on their missions? What do you think we study daily in our families, and 3 hours a day on Sundays? Do you think that that is some deep insightful message that we have never heard before? You make yourself look like an idiot when you quote scriptures to people who have probably studied themselves more to you. Besides what did that have to do with anything? You just wanted to share that with us? Why?

  60. Aaron says:

    Reading this from Texas, I am amused. I am sure that anyone that is not a Mormon in Utah’s “Happy Valley” has a chip on their shoulder about the Mormons. I mean, how could you not – they are a little elitists, always have been since Jackson County Missouri (they can’t help it really with the whole “tribe of Israel” and chosen people thing). Also with all of the rigorous seminary training they go through in High School and intense two year missions, they are pretty well armed biblically no matter what you think. (Seriously Jerry, they did smack you down scripturally and you are just sort of bouncing around now – duck and dodge). I think that demeaning Mormons on a comment thread will do little to help bring them to your views, but obviously it must feel good since it is hard to yell at a squeaky clean innocent looking Mormon on the streets in Utah. Losing the Brigham Young beard really helped out Mormons in the image department. It’s just good PR.

    Joseph Smith and Brigham Young did say some odd things (of course so have Oral Roberts, Pat Robertson, Jerry Farwell, Benny Hinn, that blue hair lady on TBN, and others) but waving that around to most Mormons in a demeaning way won’t change their belief system. They are used to being called wierdos, they actually like it. It goes with the whole “peculiar people” persona that makes them feel chosen.

    I guess what my point is that you will never convert people this way. And this is a note to both the Mormons and Anti-Mormons (and don’t give me that crock on how you are not Anti-Mormon but Christian – if the shoe fits just wear it). I mean have any of you ever converted someone by just beating them down? A lasting conversion? If so, we need to ship you to Iraq. If you could convert some of the Radical-Islamist to your religion (no matter what it is) and get them to stop killing people for virgins in Heaven that would rock!

    The real point is that Mitt is a decent guy whether you think Mormons are going to burn in Hell or not. He is actually trying to be a good person and has a good track record. That is more that what we can say for most politicians. We also need to remember that he is a politician and so has to be lubricated so that he can slip out and around tight corners, such as being interviewed by the press.

    So from now on when Tracy has the word “Mormon” in her article can we keep the comments to this:
    Mormon Dude: Mormons Rock!
    Anti-Mormon Dude: Mormons are going to burn in hell!
    Mormon Dude: No we’re not, you are.
    Anti-Mormon Dude: No, you are.

    And just leave it at that. Really nothing else needs to be said (the Bible bashing gets old real quick). Then we can all get back to commenting on what the article is really about.
    —————————————————————-
    Mormon Dude: Mitt Rocks!
    Anti-Mormon Dude: Mitt is going to burn in hell!
    —————————————————————-
    Oh well, never mind…

  61. murphy says:

    Mormon Murphy: Aaron rocks!

    Aaron, are you the same Aaron from recent postings at the Fix? In any case, good to read your post.

  62. murphy says:

    oops, I don’t mean “the Fix”, I mean the “stand to reason” one…

  63. Aaron says:

    Thanks Murphy.
    I am not the same Aaron. This is my first time posting here. I did go to college with Tracy many years ago and I am glad to see her doing what she does best. Keep it up you lib-nut! ;)

  64. Jerry says:

    Mormon Murphy,
    Go to “Stand to Reason” and read their 13 statements of faith. Do you agree?

  65. murphy says:

    Jerry,

    Nothing in this thread has convinced me that you have ears. When someone counters your false statements, you simply throw another attack from a different angle. You never admit it when you’re caught spreading lies. Like Aaron says, you’ve been ducking and dodging this whole time.

    Your “ministry” is very much “by the book”. I’ve talked with anti-mormon folks before, and it always follows the same theme. First, hit the mormons with accusations about what they believe which are either twisted or flat wrong. Second (and this is risky for the reasons Aaron mentioned), try using scripture to knock down LDS doctrine. Myclob knows his scriptures far better than you, but you don’t miss a beat, attacking Joseph Smith relentlessly with all sorts of groundless accusations. Step four is to introduce mormons to christianity as if they’ve never heard of Christ before.

    You’ll understand if I’m not interested in your baiting, since I know where you’re going with this. As for your “I love you even while I’m spreading lies about your church” attitude, no thanks.

  66. murphy says:

    Jerry,

    Nothing you’ve written in this thread convinces me that you have ears. Like Aaron said, you’ve been ducking and dodging this whole time.

    Your “ministry” is very “by the book”. I’ve talked to anti-mormons before, your strategies are very much the same. First, make a list of all the mormon beliefs you don’t like, then twist them around so they sound worse, and even throw in some lies of your own. Second (and this is risky for the reasons Aaron mentioned) try to use scripture to knock down LDS doctrines. Myclob knows his scriptures far better than you do, so failing in this you move to step three, attack Joseph Smith with all sorts of false accusations of “murderer” and such nonsense (fyi, he shot several men in self defense as the jail he was illegally being held in was attacked by a mob…he was eventually shot and stabbed to death by members of your same “ministry” Jerry). Fourth, you put on your Sunday shirt and “introduce” the mormons to the Christ of the Bible as if they’ve never heard of him before.

    You’ll understand if I don’t feel like getting baited anymore, as I can see where you’re going. As for your “I love you even while I spread lies about your Church” attitude, no thanks.

  67. Jerry says:

    Yes Aaron, I have seen first hand street preachers confronting Mormons, at the Manti “Mormon Miracle Pageant”. I prayed with one young man to accept the Jesus of the Bible as his Lord and Savior. He is no longer Mormon. This happened just last week.

  68. Jerry says:

    Joseph Smith lied to you.

  69. JM says:

    It’s too bad that a wonderful article on Mitt and his politics was followed up by such an embarresing distraction.

  70. john says:

    My problem is with Romney and all the strange stuff he seems to believe in:
    (1) a Lost Tribe of Israel landed in the Americas (somewhere) and established a civilization. Both The Smithsonian Institute and the National Geographic Society have publicly stated that no archeology evidence exist.
    (2)DNA: Spin this any way you want, but some where, some place the Lost Tribe of Israel must have spilled some blood or semen somewhere in the Americas.
    (3)Joesph Smith: gold digging, arrest records, golden plates, the Rossetti Stone, polygamy.
    (4) Garments: sacred underwear with Free Masonary symbols (the compass & the square).

    I can unedrstand an uneducated boy boy believing this stuff, but not an educated man.

  71. Sean Borzea says:

    To all:

    I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Thank you all for a lively discussion. Even though we don’t all come down on the same side of the issues/doctrine, etc., the discussion itself was important. Otherwise, if we all crawl away in our homes to watch prime time TV all the time and lose interest in maters that should be important to us, and more importantly, lose interest in each other/discussions then we will all “go to hell.” At least this way, we all have a chance at learning , changing, growing, appreciating.

    I would like to acknowledge that just as the LDS members posting here do not represent the LDS church, the anti-Mormon person posting here does not represent all persons not in the LDS church. With a different mix of people, the conversation could have gone in any number of ways.

    We are all brothers and sisters trying to do our best, follow God, and help each other along the way. God’s truth exists independent of all opinions, etc., that is, it does not change.

    And, for what it’s worth, my simple formula for engaging in more fruitful debate on the subject:

    1.state your belief
    2.give the source for that belief (bible, Koran, modern revelation to a prophet, etc.)
    3.state how you know it is true (study, prayer, living/striving to live the teachings, brings happiness and peace, my grandfather was a minister, etc.)
    4.you might also explain how it might help me in my life. I can then compare it to what I have, consider it, learn more about it from the source mentioned in #2, pray about it, and so on. Leaning about the path to follow is not a trivial matter, but should be pursued with extreme carefulness. This, after all, is the most important duty of a person.

    over & out
    Sean

  72. K says:

    Here’s the bottom line on Mormonism.

    They claim to be Christian when everything their faith is based on is counter to Biblical Christianity. They look good and “Christian like” on the outside, but the core beliefs as TAUGHT to the people through handbooks handed down from a standards committee in Salt Lake are NOT Christian and only promote coercing you through fear of losing your family, into holding your position in the tithe-paying hive and sucking others in with you.

    Bottom line – it’s a power hungry, investment and real estate holding company with some fancy buildings on prime land world-wide, and a little side business of publishing spiritual mumbo jumbo to keep the masses intoxicated enough to keep paying tithing to be worthy enough to obtain the blessings of eternity, which the church thinks are only its to give.

    You know, you can show me where you’ve cross-referenced the Quran to the King James Bible, and it doesn’t make your religion Christian if you still call everyone who believes in Biblical Christianity infidels. (or apostates or abominations…)

    The debate between Jerry and the gang, clearly shows that the two religions are on opposite sides of the Biblical fence. One of them lines up in parallel with everything else on its side of the fence – new age, humanism, secularism, “what you believe is fine for you”, Islam, etc. – but the other clearly has stood on it’s own for 2000 years in spite of the potshots and doesn’t require more
    than a mustard seed of faith based on FACTS. When you sincerely look into the facts of Mormonism – read their books online even – Journal of Discourses, History of the Church, compare to Family Home Evening Handbooks, Priesthood Handbooks, Relief Society Handbooks, Gospel Principles – they don’t add up to the claims.

    The main claims that draw the line between Mormonism and Christianity are:
    1) That true Christianity disappeared from the earth after the death of the apostles. They call this “the great apostacy”, nevermind the book of Acts of Foxe’s book of Martyrs which chronicle the price paid by early Christians to maintain the purity of the faith.
    2) That the Bible is missing all of what the LDS Gospel and The Book of Mormon brings to the table, calling “The Book of Mormon” the most correct of any book on earth, but nevermind the fact that the main salvation practices of temple works and the LDS plan of salvation are not IN this supplemental book that should be filling in the gaps. All of those things are based on other writings of Joseph Smith and prophets.
    3) That all the Christian denominations in Joseph Smith’s day (ca.1830) were an ABOMINATION before God, incorrect, their creeds & teachers all corrupt.

    So, claim you’re Christian, but do I want someone who was raised generationally on these core values in the white house claiming he’s a Christian and validating a religion that is deceiving 11 million people world-wide? No more than I would ever want a Muslim in the White House if he can’t objectively look at his gospel brought by an angel to a prophet that claimed all other religions are infidels.

    Jerry’s references were all valid. I find it interesting that his references were short and concise, while the Mormons replies were extensive and loaded with their own scriptures to justify, their claims, yet someone here claimed Jerry was wasting everyone’s time.

    SEEK.

  73. James Cutler says:

    In reply to Jerry, 6-20-06 by someone who knows the Mormon faith really well!
    1.God was once a man. – yes, he is our Heavenly father and far above us.
    2.A man can become god.
    – let’s put it this way, read Roman’s 8:16-18 – we can be “Heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ.”
    3.Each world has it’s own god.
    -Moses was told he would only get an account of this world. Genesis 1:1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Abraham was taught that worlds without number were created by God.
    4.We all were spirit children fathered by the god of this world.
    -Let’s put it this way, he is our heavenly Father, and we are created in his image (Gen. 1:26). Please don’t minimize the fact that he is the God of many worlds (worlds without end).
    5.The god of this world came to earth and had intercourse with Mary (incest? was not Mary his “spirit child?) and that’s where Jesus came from.
    -I know, you are trying to take Elder McConkie out of context. Mary was conceived of the Holy Ghost by the power of God (that’s what the Bible says, doesn’t it?). Are you doubting that Jesus Christ is the son of God?
    6.There are three levels of heaven (If you are not Mormon you automaticely go to the lowest level)
    -Let’s put it this way, 1 Corinthians 15:40-43 says that in the resurrection, there will be 3 different resurrections of Glory. If you are not baptized by proper authority through Jesus Christ, you cannot make it into the kingdom of God (John 3:5)
    7.Jesus paid the price for atonement when he sweated drops of blood in the Garden of Gethsemane.
    -Let’s put it this way, without the savior’s death on the cross, the atonement would not have been completed–Gethsemane was only a part of the atonement, read the Bible dictionary under atonement.
    8.When Jesus died on the cross he FAILED.
    I hope that you don’t continue to buy these twisted truths. Remember that brilliant, educated people believe in this religion, so the church at least has to make common sense. This last statement does not. Anti’s call us mormons mostly because they don’t want to say our name has Christ’s name on it-it ruins their gimick when they say we are not Christian.

  74. Janet says:

    As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I have read all of the above messages and arguments back and forth and just want to make one comment: The only way to know whether the Book of Mormon, the LDS church, Joseph Smith, or anything else is true or not is to seriously read and study, with a real desire to know, and with an open heart and mind and faith in Jesus Christ, and then pray about it and ask God if it is true. If you are sincere, you will receive an answer that it is, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And then you will know, not just believe. That is why the LDS church is the fastest growing church on earth. All the arguments pro and con fall away as just words after one has received a powerful witness of one of the members of the Godhead, whose mission is to testify of truth as the emissary of God the Father and his son, Jesus Christ.

    Thanks for reading and considering. You do not have to comment, as it would just be more words. Mitt Romney is a nice guy, trying to live his best as he sees fit. The real question all should be asking of any candidate is: will he uphold the Constitution of the United States of America; that is the litmus test.