Thursday, April 24, 2014
What's New in the New West
Home » New West Network Topics » A Montana Trapper Confesses

A Montana Trapper Confesses

A Montana trapper has publicly confessed to animal abuse. In a guest opinion recently printed in The Missoulian (http://www.missoulian.com/articles/2008/02/11/opinion/guest/guest11.txt), Montana Trappers Association member Dennis “Foothold” Schutz wrote, “We trappers do cause pain and suffering to animals and apologize to no one.” While this is a change from the fur trapper’s usual claim that trapping is humane, the admission was obviously not made in a mood of contrition.

“Foothold” Schutz exults in his candor. He’s bragging, like Michael Vick and his buddies probably bragged about how they killed their fighting dogs. He justifies his cruelty by saying, “We are predators, period,” ignoring the fact that most human predators in the USA hunt with guns or other methods that kill quickly and precisely, death occurring in seconds or minutes rather than hours or days. Hunters select and kill an individual animal, not any creature that comes within range. Wounded animals are pursued and killed, not left to suffer.

This trapper’s candor exposes the attitude of trappers to animals. While most sportsmen take pride in a clean kill and their skill in stalking, trappers are indifferent to how their victims die. Nor do they care, aside for the inconvenience it may cause them, how many untargeted animals die in their traps. In a country that has been outraged by the cruelties of the dog-fighting racket, it is strange that this agony inflicted on wild animals is still overlooked.

Mr. Schutz’s connection of trapping with our American freedoms is distorted. Many of our ancestors did come here to escape oppression or better themselves, but not to beat up animals. The necessity of living off the land is long past. What was a way of life for some is now just a hobby, a sport, a diversion. Fur trapping is not an occupation any more, and Americans have changed the way they look at animals. Just as we now see racial discrimination as unjust and unfair, so we see have come to see animal abuse as foul and unethical. When people harvest “renewable natural resources” by means of wasteful and cruel means, it is no longer a “right.” When a few individuals claim they have a “freedom” to abuse and torture animals, they are wrong.

What stands out most about trappers is their failure to grant animals any dignity, compassion or understanding. If they saw the endless hours of agony a trapped animal endures, if they saw the casual brutality with which a trapper kills and discards unwanted victims, and if they saw the smug contempt with which the trapper beats and suffocates his “prey” to death, most Westerners would vote to outlaw this savagery.

About Taz Alago

Comments

  1. Mary says:

    Thank you for this informative piece! At least he admits to this. Now, how he can live with himself, I don’t know. Inflicting suffering…? Aren’t we beyond that or are we back in the Dark Ages…? And let’s not kid ourselves about trapping as a form of wildlife management. It’s completely market driven, and Brian Giddings was quoted in the Great Falls Tribune that due to European demand, the pelt price has gone up, and thus, so has the number of animals that can be killed. On public lands where we recreate and would like very much to see a pine marten or beaver or bobcat…

  2. cody says:

    trapping is the sweetest sport out there no matter what anyone says

  3. Taz Alago says:

    Well, Cody -
    I’m glad you call it a sport and not a “way of life” and a “right.” I’m sure the guys who still raise and fight dogs say the same. You who support a sport that involves inflicting agonizing pain and death have a different perspective than most others. There is a growing consensus that to get one’s jollies by essentially torturing animals is deviant.

  4. Taz Alago says:

    Protect Montana?

    Come off it, buddy. Since when does anybody have the right to torment animals, especially for fun? This nonsense about losing your “rights” by outlawing trapping makes as much sense as becoming all atwitter because if armed robbery is outlawed, guns will be too. Grow up paisano.

  5. Protect Montana says:

    I am sorry that you have to respond to anyone in that manner. And I am sorry that anything that does not matter to you, shouldn’t matter to the rest of America.
    Public land is exactly that, Public. Is a trapper not part of the Public?
    I just wish that people could begin to educate themselfs about both sides of the matter before they make comments and spread ignorance. I for one have seen many Pine Martin, Bobcats, and Beaver every year. And no they are not in traps. All you have to do is actually care enough about the animals to go out and watch them. Do some studying about them by actually looking for them. And all of those animals that were commented on above are mostly nocturnal, that means that they are active at night. The Pine Martin is a beutiful animal that is smart, shy and very accrobatic. He loves hunting in very early morning and very late evening. His favorit food is pine squirrel, and he will run through the tops of trees to catch him. I know this animal because I love this animal, as I do all animals. Lets fight for our wild lands to stop the animals homelands from dissapearing. The more wild land we lose the more of them will dissapear too. Go up against the true enemy of animals, ” Human Advancement!”

    Honesty is a Virtue.
    Justice is a Right.

  6. Taz Alago says:

    Goodness Gracious!

    Did I read you wrong? You actually revere animals? You love them? You really go out and look at animals? Well, I’ll be! You also support trapping. You’re one of those guys who loves animals but torments them before killing them. Why don’t you tell me about the ethics of trapping? Why don’t you tell me that trapping is “hard love”? That would fit into your philosophy of nature-loving, hey? I’m all for protecting wild lands and conserving the animals’ homelands, but even more than that I want to protect your much-beloved animals from indiscriminate and torturous slaughter at the hands of trappers. As for “human advancement,” I suppose you mean “human encroachment.” “Human advancement,” I think, would be the antithesis of the mentality of trapping, which, treats animals as objects rather than living beings.

    Old buddy, you should practice what you preach: “Honesty is a Virtue.” Then maybe people wouldn’t respond to you “in that manner.”

  7. Protect Montana says:

    I have told no lies to bring on your fowlness. I would like to believe that wildlands are worth the most, because animals can not live without them. And if you want to protect animals from trappers more than you want to protect the lands on wich they live, then I rest my case.

  8. Protect Montana says:

    And I wrote exactly what I ment. “Human Advancement.”

  9. Taz Alago says:

    Your case is that it’s perfectly alright to abuse animals. Why don’t you explain why? If you love animals so much, why do you condone subjecting them to agony? I believe you support wildlife habitat because it provides a venue for your “sport” of trapping, not because you care for the wildlife itself. Your love of wildlife is disingenuous – it’s a lie. Your enthusiasm for habitat protection is a blind to disguise your indifference to animals. Why don’t you address the issue of the experience of animals caught in traps, and of the animals that are caught, killed and thrown away because they were not the targeted species? Is that ok with you – that brutal waste? Why don’t you step up and answer these questions?

  10. Michael says:

    Protect Montana, you are excusing trapping by talking about the land. Is is not inconsistent to desire both preserving wildlands and the animals on them. While I admire your land ethic, it does not give you or anyone the right to horrifically kill the animals on it. Being a member of the “public” does not give anyone the right to do whatever they want with wildlife that belong to all of us, and to make a personal profit. Speaking of rights, what about people’s right to hike and recreate without risking pets or encountering suffering wildlife in traps. I’ve had dogs in both a leghold and conibear. Both dogs were close to me, not off running unsupervised.

  11. Protect Montana says:

    Taz, I do not condone subjecting animals to agony. Many people do not understand that there are methods of trapping that are humane. I as a trapper put this to thought every time I set a trap. I do not set traps that will torture an animal and I do not set traps were people walk their dogs. My love of wildlife has never been a lie, and it never will. You see I have the ability to look at your side of things, and I do understand your thinking. But I also understand that you are very uneducated in the ways that nature works, and what happens to animals that over populate. I have spent many years in the wild and have seen first hand what happens. These animals overpopulate and then there is not enough food for them to sustain their massive population and they starve slowly, it is horrible. I do not expect you to understand what I am talking about because you have already made up your mind that you are very correct.
    Michael, thank you for your intelligent comments. I am all for preserving the land and animals that live there. One missconseption that I see a lot is that people often say that we own the animals. We do not own these animals, that is what makes them wild. They are free to walk and do as they please till the day they die. And as for you dogs, I am sorry that you had to witness that. I for one do not use large conibears for trapping and I have never caught a pet. And yes I make a profit off of the animals that I trap, but it is no different than anyone who sells any part of any animal. We need to understand in this world that we do rely on animals for many things. And most of you eat them. How did those animals come to end up on your plate? God gave us eye teeth for a reason, and that was so we could eat the flesh of animals. Just remember, trapping does not have to be a horrific injustice to wild animals lives. And remember that this is all watched over by Montana Fish and Game and these ladies and gentlemen do an outstanding job of protecting our wild things.
    Thank you…

  12. Taz Alago says:

    By golly, PM, you’re right! Many people do not understand that there are methods of trapping that are humane. I’m glad you don’t set traps that will torture an animal. What kind of traps do you use? Faery-dust traps? How nice. Too bad there aren’t any. So I guess like most trappers you use a combination of leg-hold, Conibear and snare traps, all of which are brutally cruel. Like most trappers, you use a combination of beating and chest compression to kill the animals (standing on the animal’s chests – how humane and loving) so as not to damage the pelt. You haven’t a clue about my “side of things.” You don’t grasp the concept that animals can suffer, or perhaps you grasp the concept but don’t care. If you think the only way to reduce animal over-population is by trapping, with all the needless suffering that entails, you must have forgotten about the more common method of hunting, and of course the age-old natural rhythm of predator/prey feast and famine as predator populations vary in synch with prey populations. This process has been on-going since predators and prey have been on Earth. One of the more preposterous claims of those attempting to defend fur trapping is that they are so wise in the ways of the wilderness. Anybody who observes, hunts or studies wildlife has at least as much knowledge as any trapper, probably more because they’re not concentrating only on how to trap them. PM, you’re still shying away from describing how you catch and kill your victims and why it’s ok to abuse animals for, in your case, fun and profit? So, how do you catch’em and kill’em and how does it feel to beat a coyote and then stand on him, especially as how you love him so much?

  13. Protect Montana says:

    I do not beat animals, or stand on them to kill them. I would only take an animals life if I can do it quickly. Predator and prey populations are not always in check, that is why Mother Nature does her part to correct that. This is done through disease and starvation, neither is the way I would want it. You do not know me, but you are quick to describe how I feel and how I do things. And in actuallity I do not trap coyotes, I hunt them. So lets quit assuming anything about me for your enjoyment and gain. I do understand your side of things and your thinking, but as you have noticed I do not make up lies about you sir. Speak what you know, and listen when you don’t.

  14. Taz Alago says:

    So, how do you trap your animals? I don’t need to assume anything about you since you’ve told me you’re a trapper. That’s what this discussion is about – trapping. You never answer any questions about what and how you trap. So, what and how do you trap? How do you kill? If you shoot your take, you damage the pelt. In Montana, fur trappers use the beat and stamp method. So, are you different?

  15. Protect Montana says:

    Mr. Alago. If you are so revolted by the thought of an animal dying then why do pressure so much for a detailed story of an animals death. And Mr. Alago, you have answered all of your own questions before you even ask them. Mr. Alago, have you ever killed an animal? Mr. Alago, are you a hypocrite?

  16. Taz Alago says:

    Come on PM -

    I’m not asking for gruesome details. I’m asking pretty simple questions which you won’t answer. What traps do you use? How do you kill your take? You needn’t go into details. Just a few words will be enough. Oh yeah, and how often do you check your sets? It’s telling that you won’t supply this basic info. Certainly “Foothold” Schutz had the honesty not to beat around the bush. I don’t think what bothers people about trapping is the killing so much as the means. But you can clear this up for them, and me.

  17. Protect Montana says:

    I read the article that “Foothold” Schutz wrote, and I would say that I have to agree with him. I think that Footloose took him out of context, but I agree fully with what he has said. And to fill your questions. I use snares, foot holds, and small conibears. And I use a rifle to kill any animal that is in a foot hold. That is how I do it. I check my traps every morning, and I stay away from populated areas with traps that could harm a pet. Now I have told you what you wanted to hear, so now answer my question. Do you hunt? Or have you ever killed an animal? Remember Mr. Alago this is all about honesty, right?

  18. Taz Alago says:

    Well PM,

    I’m sorry you don’t use faery-dust traps but I’m glad you at least shoot your catch. Still, the animals can remain 24 hours in your traps with all that means – all that horror. You’re the only Western trapper I’ve met who’s told me he uses a gun on his fur take, not just on the unwanted animals, the reason being a bullet hole knocks a chunk off the price.

    I haven’t hunted in more than 20 years, except with a spear in the ocean, and I stopped that more than 10 years ago. My grandfather and my father both trapped when they were kids, and I did too – for about a week. Then I found I didn’t like the taste of it.

    You know, the problem for most people with trapping is not the killing but the way it’s done. Anybody who drives a car has almost certainly killed animals. And as you have said, folks eat meat. But the recent stir over the way a California meat plant treated their down cows has shown that even meat-eaters want the killing done as humanely as possible. Trappers don’t do their killing as humanely as possible. Even a kill trap such as a neck snare can take quite a while to kill, in a most gruesome way. Conibear traps sometimes grab an animal by the middle rather than the neck. That’s an unbearable way to die. I don’t believe trappers necessarily want that to happen, but they obviously don’t let the possibility stop them. All this shows that whatever protestations of animal love they make, trappers go right ahead and cause all this brutal mayhem. Really, how can a normal person go on regularly abusing the animals he loves? So it seems to me and many others that trappers are being more than a might hypocritical when they claim to be lovers of wildlife.

  19. Albert says:

    The defense of trapping as a good commercial business/sport makes one wonder how trapping gets away with it. The commercialization of wildlife has been outlawed for almost a century. It’s a felony to kill wildlife and sell it. Does anyone know why trapping is still legal? It’s not only the commercialization of wildlife, but animal abuse, clearly.

  20. Taz Alago says:

    I guess fur trapping is still legal because people don’t know much about it. For many, it still has an image as romantic, the hardy trapper of old living the wild, free life of the unbound West. They don’t connect it with the animals. Change can be slow, but public awareness of the brutalities of trapping is catching up with the public’s clear disapproval of animal cruelty, for whatever purpose. And of course if you’ve had one of your own animals caught, it makes you wonder why these “land mines” should be scattered around public land to the detriment of the general public.

  21. Lee says:

    The sad thing is that people who trap and cause horrific agony and choose to behave in a sociopathic way, that is no concern/empathy for the victims, leads me to be very afraid of being “alone in an alley” so to speak with a trapper. Trappers, wake up and start to choose other ways of being in nature. Try enjoying living in peace with animals. For you own good, if nothing else.

  22. Albert says:

    Where are our wildlife agencies on this? Why don’t they keep a record of non-target and endangered species caught and killed in traps? It seems like a cover-up. But why? Trappers aren’t contributing to the economy, in fact they are thieves. Wildlife in Montana belongs to the state, not to trappers. Trappers contribute nothing toward protecting wild lands. They should be paying for the pleasure of killing for pelts, not receiving money for them.

  23. Protect Montana says:

    Mr. Alago and all. If you are wanting an answer on why trapping is leagal and why trappers are able to sell those animals fur then ask the Fish and Game. They protect those laws and all others that have to do with the game animals of Montana. All trappers have to buy a license to trap in this state, trappers buy traps and the furs are sold world wide. So trappers do contribute to the economy. And as for the comment above about being scared to be in a ally with a trapper. I suppose a trapper could be prone to violence as much as any group of people in this country, but I know one thing. I would never hurt anyone unless I was defending myself. I have never been in trouble for anything and I have a perfect driving record. To be honest I am an outstanding citizen and I abide by all laws set by state and country. And if trapping was made to be illegal I would not like it but I would honor that law also. Eventually this is going to be voted on in this state and all you have to do is go vote. Our government is a Democracy, that means that the majority rule. I believe that it is inevidable that the populace of America will soften till we are all incapable and tamed. Why we are at it we should outlaw fishing because it is cruel. We should aslo outlaw all forms of ranching and meat processing because it is cruel. If you wanted to live in a place were peope do not trap and people do not hunt then you picked the wrong state to move to. And if you have always lived here then you should probably move to New York and leave Montana what it has always been and why I love it. Besides I am sure that most of you moved here to exploit this state and make a chunk of change as you ruin it. To leave this and end. My Montana has an east infection!

  24. Taz Alago says:

    Nice pun, PM. As far as trapping goes, however, the eastern states have trappers too. But you’re right, I think fur trapping will be outlawed eventually, as it has been in California, Colorado, Arizona, and Washington. But I don’t think you have to worry about hunting or fishing. Hunting is considered ethical and humane (providing the hunter is a decent shot) and fish are not really perceived as the kind of animal one empathizes with. I do think hunting will decline though, especially as youngsters seem to be deserting the outdoors for computer games. I think state wildlife agencies will be forced by circumstances to see the light and start managing wildlife as a tourist attraction more than a hunting opportunity.

  25. Protect Montana says:

    Well Mr. Alago, I like that pun myself. In fact it is my favorit. You have a wonderful life Mr. Alago and I am sure whatever is supposed to happen, will. It has been nice talking with you, and even though we are on different sides I think that you are a well spoken man. I know that you do not understand were I am coming from, but trapping is a big deal to me. I grew up trapping and even though it is impossible for you people to understand, I do love wild animals. I love the wilderness and would love for things to be the way they were a hundred years ago or even a thousand, but that is impossible. This world is changing for the worst, and we just have to ride it till it dies. In all reality we as humans are just a sickness to this wonderful earth. Give it to a man and he will destroy it. Put a man in a wonderful land and he will suck it dry till it is a wasteland of useless crap. Buy that virgin land, and slam your concret on it. Level those beutiful forrests to try to keep up with homes for your out of controle population. Make that money you bald rats, it is all that matters now. Make that buck and then go to your church and repent for your greed. All you have to do is repent and God will forgive, right?
    Bulls%#t!!!!!!!!!!!!

  26. Taz Alago says:

    Yup,

    I can’t argue with your take on the way things are, and the way they’re going. Words fail me.

    Nothing like a good serious debate to shine some light around.

    As they used to say, PM, “Keep your hair on.”

  27. Marc Cooke says:

    PM, Wake up and smell the East Infection. I come from the East Coast and if my memory serves me correctly the Military did not ask if I was from Montana in order for me to enlist. So after paying my dues (With no regrets!) to and for this great country I received an Honorable discharge. My point is I will live any “Dam” place I want to in the United States.
    OK Big Boy lets talk trapping!! I am sure the day will come when trapping is outlawed in Montana. My only regret is that it was not yesterday. If you are such a great outdoorsmen and take pleasure or are indifferent to causing pain and misery my suggestion to you is join the military. However, I am sure that when the creature you are targeting to terminate is also trying to target you your position will change instantly. My guess is that you might find God and cut a few deals with him if he lets you live through the combat. Probably be smart for “You” to bring a change of underwear. With the kind of sick self centered attitude you have I am sure that your fellow servicemen and women would see little loss in lossing you.

  28. Protect Montana says:

    Dealing with a little anger issue? I have full respect for all men and women in our armed forces, and would support them in any way I could. And anyone can live any place they want in this Country and I am very well aware of that. I also do not think that it is your place to speak of how all the service men and women would feel about me dying, and it is not like they would realize it anyways. Got a question for you Mr. Cooke. How am I self centered? I do not get an idea in my head and try to push it on the rest of society. I believe that everybody has their thoughts and preferences and they are entitled to them. And as far as an animal killing me, I would welcome that death far before I would welcome the world that people like you are building. Oh ya Mr. Cooke, I did not realize that God was lost, He just isn’t coming back!
    Cold and forsaken the ones they hold, the Lord above who’s son they’ve sold. Dark crossed fingers rise from the earth to kill the child beneath the Lords hearth. Heavy the tears around the spire as the blood flowed and the light rose higher. The helping hands nailed in a grip, forthcoming the Lord and his one last trip.

    Carrell 1994

    I thought that you could use a little poem to lighten your day Mr. Cooke.
    I hope you enjoy the rest of your life judging others and wading around in your self deluded ignorance. Good day to you Sir.

  29. gline says:

    So quoting from the bible makes trapping ok? I’m lost here.
    I have just come back from a wonderful trip to Yellowstone National Park where we saw many wonderful animals including wolves, bison, elk, sheet, deer and eagles. very beautiful day of seeing animals in peace and coexisting with humans. no trapping and hunting. beautiful.

    In contrast to this peace I felt today, I read my email tonight and see stories of dogs caught in traps. AGAIN. it never stops. not to mention the endangered species that are caught, such as the wolverine, and not reported to FWP. There are approximately 200 wolverine left in MT. 200. A pregnant wolverine was caught in a trap recently and killed. I guess that makes the number 197 in a way.

    I write to you ‘Protect Montana’ -your name is total BS. trapping is not justice. It is sick, inhumane, cruel, abusive, disgusting and makes me want to peuk. YOu are akin to a slaughter house. How dare you quote from the bible to make your point. whatever is convenient for you right?? I really would not know what it would take for you to see the light, but it doesnt matter. Those of us who see the light on trapping will change it for you. in other words no trapping on public lands! which is our right to feel safe with our dogs. and my right to see that yet another endangered species does not go extinct. Talk about rights.

  30. Mary Beth says:

    Protect Montana,

    I just wanted to thank you for your comments. I may not agree with everything you wrote, but it’s so refreshing to see someone on this site who can hold a debate without desending into insults, hyperbole, name-calling, assuming about another’s character and views, and just plain nastiness, even when that’s nearly all you were greeted with in any opposing comments (excepting a few). You are a class act and I hope to see more from you! I applaud anyone who can look at both sides of an issue, make an informed decision, and debate about it civily.

  31. Flower child says:

    Comes down to individuality…people don’t like being told what to wear and what they can’t do. Go ahead and try to make traps illegal or fur coats against the law. Keep your dogs on a leash and your head in a cubicle where you can be nice and safe in your Disney-esque world.

  32. Taz Alago says:

    Hi Mary Beth

    PM seems a genuinely amiable soul, doesn’t he? It might be an evening well-spent to sit around the campfire with him and tell old stories. (PM, I enjoyed our argument.) But the issue of trapping, because it involves such heinous treatment of animals, arouses pretty strong feelings. And on the other side, people like “Flower Child” above can be pretty hostile too. A lot of the trapping defenders do so because they feel it’s an assault on their freedom to do what they damn well want, and it just does not matter if what they damn well want to do involves extreme mistreatment of animals. So no matter how decent a person is among humans, his attitude to animals is what we’re talking about here. Still, it’s nice to do it in a civil way if possible.

  33. Mary Beth says:

    Taz,

    Agreed… yours were some of the more civil comments (especially the later ones). I wasn’t choosing sides in the argument – the pro-trappers can be just as nasty, judging by some other comment/blog sites I’ve been on. It’s just rare to see someone who is civil and polite no matter how the opposition responds to them!

    I know these issues can get emotional. That’s why whenever I respond, I wait a minute or two before I do. Then I re-read what I’ve written, and make changes based on how I would wish someone would respond to me. Plus, it makes your argument stronger when it’s not based purely on emotion. That way, both sides can learn something… granted they are willing to have an open mind!

    Thanks to you both for a great debate!

  34. Michael says:

    Protect Montana, I agree with you on how people, in general, will destroy everything in order to make a quick buck. And I appreciate how you remain civil during a heated debate, but I still disagree with trapping.

    Part of the problem for trappers is that more and more people are moving and reproducing in the west, and more go into the outdoors every year, also more crowded, and have encounters with traps, usually unpleasant.

    I am not an armchair outdoors person. In the last 40 years I have spent over 1200 days in the Idaho wilderness areas, hiking, backpacking, kayaking, rafting, and even hunting. In Idaho, trapping is so unregulated trappers can set traps right on the trail tread of USFS trails. There are many areas I won’t go in the trapping season because the trapper has, in effect,”locked” me out with his or her activities.

    There is always the hassle with dogs, but I personally dislike finding trapped animals in traps even more. Over the years, I have only found dead animals in traps, but I know if I found a live one, though illegal, I would release it. This kind of stuff bothers me personally.

    There is a big difference between hunting and trapping. For example, I did a week backpack along the Middle Fork Salmon River in Idaho this past October with two dogs. I encountered many hunters and we visited and they shared their hunting stories with me. I don’t hunt anymore, but I used to and I understand why they enjoy it. Anyway, their hunting activities did not impede my trip or affect me in any way. In contrast, if I was to go along the same river in winter, which I’ve done in the past, I would encounter numerous traps and snares on the trail, which would cause the obvious problems with my dogs, and the unpleasant possibility of encountering a wild animal in one.

    I realize the sight of suffering, doomed animals does not bother everyone. It’s why I quit hunting. And have virtually given up meat in my diet. It is a major reason trappers and trapping opponents will never be able to understand each other. To trapping opponents, it is incredible cruelty, but for trappers, that is something they can overlook and get past.

  35. Protect Montana says:

    Thank you Mary Beth, and Flower child. I just wanted everyone to know that it is not just trapping that I believe in. It is just a small little nitch in the whole picture, that is just what this argument is about. This country has changed, it has grown sour. Dads do not stay home to raise their children, and mothers have no one to support them. People are greedy, and truly don’t look out for anyone but themselves. I believe that we have a huge change to do here, but we are bringing up battles about trapping. These people spend tons of money to go after a group of people that are such a minority in the first place. That effort could go to something far more important. Since when in this country did we make a dog more important than it’s people. And I know what some of you are going to say, but if they really cared about the people in this country then they would have raised money to help a true cause. They would have looked around and seen that our children are in a bad place. That is what originally angered me about this, we have all these problems and they are concentrating on trappers. There is an epidemic in this State that is destroying families faster than I can write. Meth has taken its hold on us, and it is going to continue to spread. The more I write about the trapping, the more I feel guilty to not speak out against the true problems. So I would like to fade away from that talk, and I would like to move on to something that really counts. I would love for anyone who wants to support Montana to join my cause. Protect Montana doesn’t mean trapping, it means exactly what it says. I just started this and I do not plan to stop, nomatter what you spit at me. If trapping is abolished, then so be it. I can live without it, even though I do not want to. So waste our time and waste our money and go after your trophy Footloose Montana, I just can not push past my conscience to continue wasting all of my time on something that will not matter in the end. Trapping doesn’t help hold families together and it does not protect those in need, so let us keep it a tiny part of the fight.
    Contact me at protectmontana@hotmail.com

    You can talk about whatever you want, and I will respond as fast as I can. Remember Montanans, togetherness means power. The power to make a difference.

    You can also contact me at. http://www.myspace.com/protectmontana.
    Spread this word, to whomever you can. And anyone that supports Footloose Montana, you are very welcome to contact me. We can have different opinions and still work for the good of Montana togather.
    And I just wanted everyone to know that I did not quote the bible above. That was a peice that I wrote when I was in highschool.

    Thank you

    Protect Montana

  36. Protect Montana says:

    Michael, I am sorry, I must have overlooked your last post. Thank you for that post, it is the most intelligent writing that I have seen from people against the trapper. I have to say that I do understand were you are coming from and what you are saying. I guess that I have just put a lot more thought into how I would effect people with trapping than others do. But I will always feel that stopping trapping is not the answere. It has a purpose that most people will never understand and one that I am growing tired of trying to explain. I believe that all people need to fight for what they feel. I just ask one thing from you and all others. Know what effects your actions will have on all things before you destroy something. And if you truely look at it from all angles and you feel that it is wrong then by all means try to stop it. But as for me, I say do not stop the trapper just regulate a little better who does it. There are some people in this country that we will not sell guns to, so maybe there are some people that we shouldn’t allow to trap. Just a thought on common sence.

    Thank you

    Protect Montana

  37. Taz Alago says:

    Oh PM -

    The anti-trapping cause is a true cause. True causes aren’t limited to humans. Not all of us are so species-centric as to ignore the plight of non-humans. The knowledge of what’s constantly being inflicted on animals by trappers (and others) causes real pain to some people, as you can see from the comments above. I can’t think of any bad effect resulting from ending fur trapping. If you’re referring to the loss of some incidental income to the trappers, I would say the same applies to mugging old ladies: sure, you can make some money, but it’s a wretched thing to do. If you’re referring to the purported incidental positive benefits of sport trapping to wildlife management, then I will say that the benefits can be attained through hunting, that much wildlife management has been legitimately questioned by professional managers and biologists, and that if traps were judged by the cruelty they inflict, they would never be justified.

    I’m sure all those wishing to end trapping in Montana have plenty of other causes they support with time and money. We are not single-mindedly obsessed by this one issue to the exclusion of all others, although I admit it might seem so at times.

    As to better regulating trappers, even good fellows like you cause a power of agony with your traps, so I don’t see that as a solution. I don’t know, maybe there’s a faery-dust trap in the far future, but I haven’t heard even a whisper about it, have you? And it would have to discriminate between intended and unintended victims.

    Hey, how come this sudden concern with people anyway? Not long ago you called them “bald rats”?

    Well, trapping aside, it sounds like you wish Montana well.

  38. gline says:

    I find it very interesting “protect montana” that you bring in the whole patriotism, constitutional rights paradigm into a discussion about inhumane, cruel trapping. That is the same tactic that people use to justify the “war”. same bs. You have not talked about how you kill your animals caught in a trap. do you bludgeaon their heads? shoot them between the eyes? Stomp on their necks to suffocate them? I have seen how it is done. It is disgusting. And I will not stop the emotion that I feel knowing this is happening. Let alone it happen to my dog, a being that I love, raised from a pup, provides me with happiness from an otherwise crazy human world. my pup does not provide me money from its pelt, like your trapping provides you (what is real job anyway?) but she provides me with never ending loyalty, love and companionship. she gets the same respect back. Now I’m sounding like a true ‘Flower Child’.

    And Mary Beth, I think you should get off the fence and look at pictures of trapped animals and imagine your own foot, or your pet’s foot lodged in it. or better yet, imagine a snare around your dog’s neck. How much time would you have to get it off? Do you have dogs? doesnt sound like it but maybe you do. The non-emotional talk is bs too. This is an emotional subject. If we tip toe around it nothing will change. Was civil rights a non emotional bland subject? no. and what did they accomplish? some progress. before you have a cow about me comparing civil rights to banning trapping, think about it. When we perform cruel acts on any being what does that make us? Think about the downer cows ? do you think this society is especially high end?

  39. Protect Montana says:

    Mr. Alago, we are bald rats. I just think that it is time we try to rise above that. And no I do not put myself above that statement. And you say that the people that are fighting to end trapping are putting money to organizations that help the people. If that is true then I would like to see that, and I would like to see how it compares to the money they have spent on this. I have always had a deep concern for people, but that doesn’t mean that we do not dissapoint me. I just hate to see energy this great go to something like this, right now. How can we help anyone in this world, be it animals or people if we can not even help ourselves. And as far as the war goes I would have to say that it is well justified. Sometimes I think that people forget how many Americans died on our soil. But then sometimes I wonder if it is time we left that place. It is a touchy subject with a million seperate opinions.
    Gline, I did tell how I kill animals, all you have to do is read the whole thing before you write. And the love you have for your dog is wonderful and you are correct about their loyalty. It would be wonderful if all of humanity had it in them to hold the loyalty and love that a dog can show. And there is nothing wrong with sounding like a flower child. Now, for your judgement on Mary Beth. That is ignorant, and I must say again that you need to read before you write. Mary Beth only stated that she liked the way that I presented myself, she never once said that she supported trapping.
    I am not sure if you are asking me what my real job is, but I must ask. Why is that important or relevant, is it so you could possibly class me or judge me a little further. If you must know I am an electrical apprentice.
    You asked, When we perform cruel acts on any being what does that make us? My answer is Bald Rats. Are we not the same creatures that have taken advantage of every miracle that this earth has given us. And if one of you are sitting there thinking that you have never performed a cruel act apon anouther being, then you need to take a deep breath and brace yourself for reality.
    Gline, were is the correct place to bring in what you called patriotism? I call it looking out for your friends and neighbors, but you call it what you like. And you can get as angry and as blind as you wish, but none of you can deny that we need to fix this country first. You cry about an animal in a trap, but how about a child living in a home with parents that are cranked out of their minds on meth. How about that childs anguish, and neglect. I am probably going to catch a lot of hell over this but…
    How in this world can we empathise over animals being trapped when their are people going through a long drawn out hell before they die. We are not talking a couple of days or even a couple of weeks. So shut the hell up about this whole pile of crap and get off your ass and help do something about your brothers and sisters that are tortured for a lifetime. Don’t you people ever get sick of hearing your minds let out the same dull drone that you have somehow mistaken for heroism. And if it is animals that you absolutly have to protect then help your humane society. They save hundreds of animals every year that people are supposed to look after but instead neglect them. The humane society could have put all this time and money to good use for animals that thought we were their friends. You people have hit a spot in my heart on your trapping subject, but you will never and I mean never gain an ounce of my support until you fix our childrens world first. You know I am right, you just have to admit it to yourself. And with denying it you are denying our childrens future.
    I will even go as far to say, that if somehow you people could help get enough of the population to help a true cause. A cause like making neighbors, neighbors again. A cause that protects our children, and our future. Then I would without a doubt sacrifice my love for trapping, in trade for a better world.

    Absolutly!

    Protect Montana

  40. gline says:

    PM- This blog is not about human suffering, unless, you have lost your pet in a trap. Nice try though. There are plenty of other spaces on the net re: human suffering that you can spend your time on. In fact, if you stopped trapping, you could devote more time and energy to your “brothers and sisters”. Have you donated to any human charities lately?

    Back to the real issue of this blog without diversion/distraction:
    I see one tiny sentence stating: I use snares, foot holds, and small conibears. And I use a rifle to kill any animal that is in a foot hold. That is how I do it.” Not a lot of time given to the specificities of how you trap. A lot of emotion and time spent on justifying your “sport”, though.

    It really doesnt matter the length of your reply- your trapping is disgusting, cruel and inhumane, whether you are shooting a trapped animal, or standing on its chest. Other trappers will use all methods I mentioned above to kill the animal, and save the pelt. Perhaps you are using a more ‘humane’ method to kill them then slowly suffocating them. I cant say that makes me feel any better, as even if you did check your traps regularly as you say you do, say within 24 hours, that animal is still stuck in a painful trap for a long time with no water, elements which can include snow, rain, extreme cold, and other predators. Just think of being stuck in a trap for 24 hours yourself (with no cell phone!) That is where the real issue lies though, as you probably see yourself above animals. How else could you do this? I am close to animals, I know them and I would never do this for money. I have lost animals to traps and no I couldnt prove that with a court document, but they disappeared and it was well known the neighbor trapped. I was told to forget it, oppress my feelings. Told to dismiss my feelings, just as you are now.

    The above title to this blog says: “A Montana trapper has publicly confessed to animal abuse”. This blog is not about the pretty, warm sport of trapping. It is about condoning pain and suffering …

  41. Fly On The Water says:

    Hello people.

    I found this page through google shortly after I began reliving horrible memories from my childhood of when I use to trap. Although I quit by the time I was 18, after almost 20 years, I still sometimes find myself reliving some of the worst days I had as a trapper. I learned it from my foster father who taught his youngest son (one of my older brothers) who also passed on his teachings. I caught my first mink when I was about 10. I got $60.00 for that. Living in the sticks far from any cities or even fair sized villages, this was a big deal for me and I was hooked. One of the worst memories that still haunt me to this day is when I caught a raccoon. This wasn’t no little raccoon either, it was a fair size in a foot-hold trap. I’d been wanting to catch some of these because of seeing what my brother and father were receiving for their pelts. By this time, I had already caught a red fox accidentally in my weasel trap. One quick knock to the center of the head and it was out cold. From there I was able somewhat consciously finish the job. Raccoons, I quickly learned were quite a different story. I may have been about 14 at the time. One quick knock barely phased him. He basically got back up and looked at me as to say “what are you doing!!!”. Just as if it were a little person. My stomach churned as I forced myself to continue. I had to put this animal down. I considered myself to have a substantial swing too. By the time I was up to 4 or 5. I burst out into tears. At this point, it was too late to turn back and try to release it and I still had to finish it. I remember staring up at the sky and asking why I had to do this. All I could think of was what that animal was going through and how evil it made me feel. Although I continued for 4 more years, I never attempted to do that again. I used a 22 rifle.

    I wanted to see if I could find anybody else out there who has shared a similar experience or feelings as I did or if I was just a different person caught in a trappers body. I love the wilderness and have since I can remember, but once I moved away and got into civilization and making substantially more money doing “civilized” things, I have never once felt the need or desire to do that again. I’ve heard many of the stories of population/disease control and I use to fight the same battle, even after the incident, but today I cannot even entertain the idea. True, I can’t help myself follow tracks once in a while or visually layout a set when I see an ideal spot, but to actually do that again, I cannot unless I absolutely had to in order to help my family or myself survive. I use to tell myself “it’s another way of nature, even bobcats torture their prey for some time”, but I realize now that even still, it’s quite different. I’d like to remain neutral on this debate, but if I had to choose, I think I’d have to go against trapping, but not without holding the respect for the trapper that consciously tries to be as humane and respectful (to the victim animals) as they can. I’ve been there and now I’m on this side of the fence looking back. My only regret is that I cannot go back and do things differently.

  42. Mary Beth says:

    Gline,

    Thank you for proving my point… when people get over-emotional, they can’t even read a post correctly before hurrying to their keyboard to type down some incorrect rhetoric.

    As Protect Montana so correctly pointed out, I never once stated I support trapping. I was simply giving kudos to PM for his intelligent, civil, informative dialouge. Point of matter, I don’t support trapping, but I support his right to express himself without the usual idiot-liberal-right-wing-Democrat-go-back-to-California-who-never-has-even-been-within-1000-miles-of-a-forest talk that these posts so often devolve into.

    Go back and read where I wrote “I know these issues can get emotional.” Sure, your willingness to jump to conclusions about me got me a little fired up at first, but I took a deep breath, and waited a half-hour or so before I responded to you in a civil fashion, without calling you names or making assumptions about you. And PM is a perfect case of letting emotion show through without over-ruling all logic and common sense – it can be done!

    It gets old very quickly trying to have a civil, intelligent debate with people who don’t even take the time to read the posts they respond to.

  43. Albert says:

    Dear Fly on the Water,
    Your story is painful, and universal. We’ve all caused pain out of ignorance, and we learn from it, at least one hopes we do. That raccoon changed you forever, and saved the lives of many other animals you would have trapped. Thank you for reminding us all of the real horror of trapping and of our humanity.

  44. Taz Alago says:

    That was very well said, Fly On The Water. Had a similar experience myself, came to the same conclusion.

    Unlike you PM. Returning to the subject of trapping, PM, which I know you would rather not discuss, seeing as how you’ve exhausted the meager resources available for its defense, which are a) it’s legal and b) “I want to do it,” I will say that loving humanity doesn’t exclude loving other creatures on this planet. You are contradicting your own statement about making assumptions about people. I guess the case you’re angling after is that even trappers can be decent caring people, and for all I know that may be true. But so what? They still do what they do, and what they do is hideous.

    We’ve been talking about Montana here, but I wouldn’t be surprised if some of the commentators are from other states. There is increasing awareness of the extent and evils of trapping in states that have not yet put this miserable practice to the sword. I think, PM, you’ll have ever more opportunity to get off the subject on other comment sites. TrapFreeOregon (trafreeoregon.org) is beating the drum and TrailSafe Nevada has won some initial skirmishes in their state. As an aside, I will mention that last week the Oregon legislature passed a bill tightening the law against dog-fighting, another example of public hostility to animal abuse.

  45. jim says:

    I have read this blog in its entirety. It seems the argument here is how trapping is “cruel,” “hideous,” “inhumane,” etc. I can’t help but feel the hypocrisies as I read this. The amount of animals that are taken in traps every year is so minor compared to the amount that is taken other ways such as vehicles and hunting. And the manner in which they suffer is certainly no better. In fact, often it is much worse. As far as vehicles go, millions of animals are maimed by them every year. Some die instantly others are only wounded–left to die a slow miserable death that may take days or weeks. Tell me how is trapping more inhumane than this? Or for that matter as inhumane. Both are direct causes of man. As for hunting, you can make the same comparison. I am an avid hunter and if I take a shot at an animal, even if it appears not to be hit, I will do a full investigation as to whether the animal was hit or not.There have been times when animals would have been left wounded if I did not practice this. Sadly, there are so many hunters that do not practice this. They will take the shot and if the animal does not appear to be hit they will go about their business. Consequently, every year thousands of animals are left to suffer and die a miserable death at the hands of hunters, far more in numbers than animals taken in traps. And most often a longer, more grueling death than by that of a trapper. This is not to say there there are not a lot of ethical hunters because there are. So what’s next, are you going to try to abolish hunting in Montana? Or perhaps driving? If you are going to hold true to your cause you better. Your cause is to stop unnecessary suffering of animals isn’t it? Or is it to keep your pets safe? Because they are included in the above animals as far as vehicles are concerned. Far more pets are killed by predators, like coyotes, every year than by traps. So trappers, by controlling the population of such predators, are actually doing pet owners a favor aren’t they. If you don’t believe me on the numbers, research it or you can just use common sense. Once you find out everything I am saying is true I hope you have the strength to look yourselves in the mirror and realize the hypocrisies of your cause.
    People of Montana and of this nation–be aware groups like this are slowly but surely widdling away at our rights. Next it will be hunting and ultimately our second amendment, the right to bear arms.
    Please support Protect Montana. It’s not just for Montana it’s for the nation. Its not just for trapping, its for all your rights.
    In our travels to where we are going let’s not forget where we came from. Let’s keep it real. Lets keep it fair for all mankind.

    Have a nice day,

    Jim

  46. Protect Montana says:

    Should we start over at the begining? Read this and hear the words in you heads. Not every person in this world has whatever it is inside to kill, and I believe that not every person has what it takes to live. Every mind is different and that is what makes this world balanced. Death is a part of life and most of us find ourselves incapable of accepting death. Most of you on this sight are the kind of people who wish to ignore that you also are killers. Just because it is not your hand that kills the animal, it is still your hand that feeds that meat into your mouth. I for one admit whole heartedly that I am a predator. I was born a predator and I will die a predator. I do not talk sideways about the subject and I do not contradict myself. I kill. I do not take animals were they are at healthy numbers, and I never take more meat than my family can eat. I am conciouse about every aspect of it. I would never find a sadistic pleasure in slaying a creature of nature. You cannot understand this because you cannot understand how I think. When I kill a animal, I sit down and thank him. And when Hunting and trapping season are over I consider it a time of peace. At this time I do not kill them. I have taken many wounded animals in my lifetime and nursed them back to health. Some of them I could not and I was always sorry for them. To some people this is consider a contradicting mind, but in actuallity it is a complex mind that deeply understands the importance of life and death. If you are going to trap, hunt, or eat meat you need to should understand this circle. Before you kill, you should know your prey. And you should have the heart to feel for him. I refuse to let anyone tell me that I am sadistic, that I am cruel. I am never cruel, and I hold a great amount of respect for all living things. And yes, I have cried over a animal that I killed. I made a bad shot on a deer when I was young and had to track it. My bullets fell out of my pocket and all I had was a knife. I had to stab that knife into the lungs of this buck and sit and watch him die in a bad way. I cried while I watched my mistake and I swore to that deer that I would never take an unsure shot again. So don’t tell me that I as a trapper or hunter of animals I am sadistic. It couldn’t be farther from the truth. Just because you cannot handle it doesn’t make it wrong. And it doesn’t make you right. Why do we think that with evolution that somehow should, or could bypass death and killing.

    Thank You All

    Protect Montana

  47. jim says:

    This is directed solely at Taz Alago.
    Taz, I read your piece on “A trapper confesses” and frankly I cant believe it was aloud to be published. Its slanderous content is remarkably ignorant. Particularly the comment “This trapper’s candor exposes the attitude of trappers to animals.” You are taking the words of one person and applying it to an entire group of people. Do you realize just how ignorant,irresponsible and childish that comment is? I am certainly not going to go away from this feeling like your candor exposes the attitude of other Journalists. We are all individuals. As for for individual, you have lost my respect entirely.

  48. Taz Alago says:

    Wow.

    PM has a buddy. Listen, guys, billions of animals are killed every year in the USA. Most are slaughtered for food. Laws are in place to minimize the suffering when they’re killed. They may not always be obeyed, but that’s due to problems of oversight. Millions are run over on the road, killed by flying into windows, power lines, what-have-you. Millions are shot too I guess. But the drivers are not trying to kill the animals, the hunters are not trying to torture their prey, and as Jim says, they track down the wounded. That’s expected of hunters. But minimizing the suffering of their prey is not in the trappers’ rule book. The trappers just don’t care what their victims experience, and they know in advance what that experience will be. Hunters don’t expect to wound, they expect to kill. With the most commonly-used traps, trappers expect to wound, they do not expect to kill. Honestly, PM, how you do go on about your love of animals. It’s become really creepy. Oh, and I must remind our readers, if there are any left, that we’re not talking here about the actual killing, but the way the killing is done. We’re not really hypocrites, boys, we understand about death. Lots of us are hunters, too. No, I think all this trapper-talk about how much they love their victims is just laughable, except that it’s so weird.

    Jim, the old canard about how trapping is a big mossy rock on the way to abolishing the Second Amendment is as convincing as the argument that if they outlaw snowmobiles in Yellowstone, next they’ll outlaw cars. No no Jim, don’t get excited! I just made that up, it’s not really true.

  49. Protect Montana says:

    Mr. Alago, All killers have victims. There are trapping laws in place to minimize the animals suffering. Now that does not mean that every trapper obeys these laws, but those laws are still in place and should be followed for many reasons. I am growing tired of your out of place comments, and I hope that there are people out there that can see through your deceit. I care very much what animals experiance and I do everything that I can to be as humane as possible. And if a trapper does not expect to kill then how does he get the pelts? The only reason you say that my love for animals is creepy, is that with saying that you hope it will somehow help your cause. And it may, but it is still deceitfull propaganda.
    Mr. Alago, you can always tell when someone feels cornered with their lies. They resort to sarcasm, and make jokes out of the situation. Just like you have just done. I think that Jim has flustered your mind, I think that he has made a real valid point that you have obviously avoided for a very good reason. You never once bothered to defend yourself when he stated that you are slanderous. What kind of a man would allow someone to acuse him of something like that and not defend it if it was not true? Mr. Alago, I think me and you both know that you have been very deceitful throughout this.
    Thank you Jim from the bottom of my heart. It is very nice to know there are people out there that can truely see reality and have the guts to speak out.
    I want more from you trappers, hunters, and anyone who feels that it is right to put an end to the fraudulent words against the trapper.

    When a man lies he destroys a part of the world.

    Sincerely

    Protect Montana

    http://www.myspace.com/protectmontana
    Please! do not be quiet any longer. Remember, the squeeky wheel gets the grease. I know you are all quiet, peaceful people but now is the time. Thank you again, Jim, Flower child, and Cody!

  50. JIM says:

    Mr.Alago your ignorance truly proceeds you. I am astonished every time I read what you have to say. I dont have a lot of time to address this last outburst. Fortunately PM did a very nice job of it . Thanks. I will say this– Taz, I was not trying to make the point “hunters” track down their kill and you know that. My point was clear.It was that and I quote “Sadly, there are so many hunters that do not practice this. They will take the shot and if the animal does not appear to be hit they will go about their business. Consequently, every year thousands of animals are left to suffer and die a miserable death at the hands of hunters, far more in numbers than animals taken in traps. And most often a longer, more grueling death than by that of a trapper. This is not to say there there are not a lot of ethical hunters because there are.” And further more I am sure there are a lot of ethical hunters that would agree with this fact. I request this of you Taz, please stop taking everything people of opposition say out of context in in a feeble attempt to gain support . I for one grow weary of it.
    Like I said before people lets keep it real.Also lets keep it honest.
    Have I nice night.
    JIm

  51. Taz Alago says:

    Well PM, what this is all about is not allowing trappers to get pelts by trapping. You can hunt’em.

    The trapping and killing of non-targeted animals made news in The Bismarck Tribune on Feb. 26. (http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2008/02/26/news/local/149712.txt) with a story about four cougars dying in traps so far in Western N. Dakota this season. The most recent was a 5-6 month old female, whose paw froze in the trap. The cat was alive but had to be euthanized. The others were found dead. The wildlife officer said if it was an older cat, it could have survived with just three feet. Earlier this year a story in the Jackson Hole Daily (http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=2626) described how a Wyoming trapper killed at least 16 deer over a three year period in neck snares. He was trapping coyote and bobcat. Despite catching the deer, he continued to make sets in the same places year after year. He reported each catch. He figured as long as he wasn’t breaking the law, there was no reason the change his habits. His case illustrates the harm trapping does to nontarget animals. Studies have found that two or three animals are trapped for every targeted animal. Here are three studies to start with: T.N. Thomas and J.E. Forbes. “Coyote Depredation Control in New York” USDA-APHIS-ADC. 1990 (10.9 to 1); D. Randall. “Hearings before the Ninety-Fourth Congress…Trapping of Animal and Birds.” US Govt. Printing Office, Wash. DC. 1975 ( Randall was a retired gov’t trapper and said the ratio he experienced was 2 to 1); G. Proulx and M.W. Barrett. “Field Testing the C120 Magnum for Mink. Wildlife Society Bulletin 21 (1993): 421-426 (73% were non-targeted).

  52. orca says:

    Let’s take a look at what trappers give back in the form of conservation work. NOTHING!
    I’ve been involved in riparian, rangeland and stream restoration for many years throughout the Northwest where I’ve worked shoulder to shoulder with representatives of TU, RMEF, county volunteer projects, just to name a few. I have NEVER heard of, or seen, a single trapper participate in a conservation project. They take advantage of the commercial aspect of making $$ from dead animals, yet give nothing back. They’re nothing but parasites.

  53. Dean says:

    Yeah, animals are EXACTLY like people. Lets hear the talk about how excruciating it would be to spend 24 hours in a trap. Well, lets talk instead about how you would feel laying out in the snow in -30 degree temps, like coyotes do every night inthe winter. Lets hope some global warming comes to their rescue! And oh-my-God! Lets eat some of that rotten, maggot filled road-kill that foxes and ravens seem to relish. What works for them must work the same for us.

    Instead, I think we should sit in our ivory towers, eat our bread that killed hundreds of small mammals and invertebrates in the planting, cultivating and harvesting, get into our politically correct prius whose manufacturing facility destroyed unknown acres of wildlife habitat, and drive down to the local strip mall and protest something, hopefully trapping, because we hope to do something to assuage our consciences for the hypocracy that we live every day.

  54. Protect Montana says:

    Mr. Alago, you are still speaking about things that you have no clue about. Cougars being killed in traps. A responsible trapper would never have a cougar die in one of his traps. And deer dying in snares, or even being caught in them is yet again an irresponsible trapper breaking the law. Snares are to be equiped with a deer stop, wich does not let the snare close all of the way. This is intended to stop the snare from sinching down on a deer leg. And that trapper, at least in the state of Montana was breaking the law! And like I have said before, a trapper that does the right things and understands animal behavior and patterns greatly decreases any chance of catching a non-target species. Like I have stated before, I have only caught one non-target animal in my life and that was a rabbit.
    Orca, how can you stand up and say that no trapper has ever gave back in the form of conservation work. You are talking big and miss-informing the public for what reason? This world has enough lies, you can take a break from yours.
    Please people, if we are going to debate on this at least give me an apponent that speaks the truth and sticks to subjects that they actually know something about.
    Desperate men with no were to turn resort to telling lies.

    Thank you

    Protect Montana

  55. gline says:

    “Thank you for proving my point… when people get over-emotional, they can’t even read a post correctly before hurrying to their keyboard to type down some incorrect rhetoric.”

    Dear Mary Beth: I don’t believe I was over emotional in what I said at all. In fact, it was very rational and true. You can try to pin that on me, but in reality it is just what you would like me to do, however that wont happen. My words are not incorrect rhetoric. In fact, if you could give me specific examples to prove your general and broad accusation that would add to your credibility. Because at this point you have none. Try me.

  56. jim says:

    Taz, you really dont get it do you? You really are as naive as you appear. There is good and bad in all people. Like you for instance, in my opinion, you are a bad journalist,at least on this subject. You butchered your story on ” a trapper confesses.” The fact that you are a bad journalist does not make every journalist bad. As a debater you are bad. You constantly avoid the facts of the opposition and take what they say out of context. Twisting and contorting the truth. But just because you are a bad debater does not make every debater bad. There are a lot of bad drivers and when they are caught breaking the law they suffer the consequences. But that doesn’t make every driver bad. I could go on all night with different analogies of good and bad in people of all walks of life but I don’t think you will get the point anyhow. Trappers are no different. Neither are hunters. You are way out of line. There is no way the great state of montana will let your cause succeed.
    Dean , I would love to hear more from you. You appear to be intelligent.
    PM, Keep up the good wook. Its a worthy cause.

  57. gline says:

    MaryBeth and PM:
    Nice projection on others’ – telling me that I need to read the whole thing before I answer. How arrogant, and I must say ignorant. Admit it, your losing fast.

  58. gline says:

    How much more can you butcher a story on “A trapper confesses”? I mean really? He already confessed? There is nothing else to butcher? nice wording by the way… how about something a little less violent?
    can you do that?

  59. Taz Alago says:

    Okeedokey -

    I’m almost afraid to try this again. I was beginning to think the devil was helping out the trapping boys. Maybe he is. If this doesn’t come up, cut and paste it. If that doesn’t work, I guess you’ll have to type it in. Don’t bother with it, PM & Jim & Dean, it will have no effect on you.
    http://trapfreeoregon.org/page18.html

  60. JIm says:

    Taz,I got a little bomb to drop on you. So please brace your . I am not a trapper. I know ,I know,But will be ok. I’m sorry to have to tell you but someone had to. Yes, its true, non-trappers also disagree with your tactics,yourcause, your thought process. I think the part I dislike the most about you and people like you is your view or lack of understanding of life. Your inability to see things in the complex way they are.The lack of awareness of what you are and where you came from. In short, your blindness. Good day too all.

  61. Michael says:

    People can call my Prius “politically correct” all they want, but I get 53 miles per gallon. I also have a Ford half-ton pickup, but it sits in the garage unless I need it for a specific purpose that the Prius cannot perform. I’ll take my “politically correct” money to the bank any day.

    Back on topic, I think this discussion is degenerating into name calling and perhaps is pointless. I don’t think that because animals are killed in large numbers everyday by various means, (cars, hunting, etc.) justifies the killing of more by another means such as trapping. I think a point I mentioned before is being missed here trying to compare hunting to trapping. Hunting doesn’t generally affect other recreationists as does trapping. I agree with PM that perhaps not everyone should be allowed to trap, just like not everyone should own a gun. But, the Montana Trapper’s Association has fought tooth and nail any attempts over the years to tighten regulations and licensing requirements. I was at a FWP hearing where a commissioner lectured the trappers in attendance that they were not policing themselves and that further regulation was inevitable from the state. To emphasize his point, the commissioner commented, “there are a lot more dog owners than trappers.” Perhaps if “slob-trappers” had been eliminated through tough training and licensing provisions, and regulations tightened, this would not be the issue it is today.

    As a long time NRA member, I disagree with the premise that if trapping is curtailed, our firearms and 2nd. Amendment rights are next. There are plenty of similar comparisons available, such as, if cigarettes are banned, our guns are next.

    I know FWP is looking to take some measures to mitigate conflicts between the two sides. However, I don’t think the two sides will ever see “eye to eye”. One side will win and one will lose.

  62. orca says:

    Hey there “protect montana”
    How about giving me examples of trappers participating in stream restoration, riparian restoration projects or any other wildlife enhancement projects. Oh right…they catch rabid coyotes…Geez!
    Tell me why trappers can sell their “catch” commercially, but hunters and fishermen can’t? What makes them so elite?
    I also happen to be a long time NRA member am am not worried about the anti-trappers taking away my guns.
    Not one state that has initiated a trapping ban has even hinted at banning hunting or firearms.
    Quit riding the coattails of hunting and fishing groups by saying you’re conservationists…I repeat..trappers are nothing but parasites.

  63. jim says:

    michael, I will agree with you that this is pointless. I will agree that we simply disagree about trapping and all it entails . upon reading your comment ” I think a point I mentioned before is being missed here trying to compare hunting to trapping.” caused me to look back to what you said. When I did, I seen your comment
    “I am not an armchair outdoors person. In the last 40 years I have spent over 1200 days in the Idaho wilderness areas, hiking, backpacking, kayaking, rafting, and even hunting. In Idaho, trapping is so unregulated trappers can set traps right on the trail tread of USFS trails.” I found it interesting,particularly since I live in Idaho. It prompted me to go pick up my IFG hand book and flip to FURBEARERS.upon reading it ,it became very clear to me just how misinformed you are about the regulations of trapping in Idaho. You really should obtain a copy and read it and understand it before you make such uneducated comments. In fact I am certain it would be beneficial to all of us if all trappers and non trappers would read it in it’s entirety. I feel strongly that it would be beneficial to society if non-trappers would lean every thing about trapping before they denounce it.. I mean to truly understand it in its entirety. Instead of taking the narrow minded approach that it is just cruel. Michael , just because we don’t agree about the topic of trapping doesn’t mean I consider you my enemy. In fact in normal life its quite possible we would get along just fine. It would be really nice if trappers and non-trappers could see eye to eye and meet in the middle on this subject. I fear this may never happen do to the differences in backgrounds and cultures. At any rate have a nice night all.

  64. Michael says:

    Jim,

    Possibly I am misinformed about the trapping regulations in Idaho regarding setting traps on trails. I was hiking along the Salmon River Trail below Corn Creek on the way to Lantz Bar when I encountered three different traps set on the river trail.

    But, if I am ignorant, so is the Idaho Fish and Game. After calling about another issue, I mentioned the three traps to a warden out of the Salmon office. He was the one that told me that setting the traps on the trail was legal. So, I will read the regulations myself, and the warden should too, and I will get back to you. I assumed a warden should know his own dept. regulations. But, you never actually said whether it was legal to set traps on trails or not, just that I was “uneducated”.

    I not sure why you don’t think cruelty is a valid enough reason to cease an activity. In your previous comments, you seem to be using the deaths of animals due to many causes to justify your own intentional killing of more animals through trapping.

  65. Ann says:

    It’s pretty obvious to the most casual observer, that ANY ONE that enjoys inflicting, or seeing the pain and suffering of animals or anything else, suffers from what is known as “short-man-syndrome”. Whether it be height, brain power, or something more ‘personal’.

  66. orca says:

    Ann…..in addition to the “short-man-syndrome” many of them suffer from, unfortunately and through no fault of theirs, the fact that they were abused as children.

  67. Taz Alago says:

    Beyond all the words that have been written on this page, we’re back to the beginning. A trapper has admitted what he does is animal cruelty. Every single fur trapper in the USA uses leg- and/or body-hold traps: leg-hold traps, Conibear traps, snare traps. Anybody who has read the exhaustive discussion above can’t help but have gotten a good idea of what trapping involves. Every single trap cause great suffering, suffering which can last a long, long time. Every trapper sees suffering animals every single day of trapping season, all of it at his hands. Scores, hundreds, thousands of agonized creatures. All for him. What does he see? Look at this image. It’s not gruesome or bloody, but it shows why we want to stop this truly sadistic sport: http://trapfreeoregon.org/page18.html

  68. Mary Beth says:

    Gline-

    What you said was rational and true? You took one comment meant for someone else (my first to PM) and assumed I was pro-trapping. I pointed out that was NOT in fact true and if you HAD in fact read that post more closely, you would have realized that before you went off on me. So I assumed (maybe incorrectly – maybe you chose to deliberately misread or misinterpret my comment) that you hadn’t read it thouroughly. You told me to “get off the fence.” What fence was I on? And I agreed with you that this IS an emotional subject. But my point with that whole argument was that we should not base our arguments purely on emotion. And I never “had a cow” about you comparing banning trapping to civil rights – another assumption about me.

    I already gave you a specific example in my first reply to you – you took a statement by me and assumed a whole paragraph about my views on the subject. That just proves again that you either aren’t reading closely or deliberately chosing to misinterpret my statements.

    How am I projecting onto you? I’ve read over your posts multiple times in an attempt to anwer your questions and assumptions. How is that arrogant and ignorant? And I was never trying to establish credibility for a position in the very first place – I was simply telling PM how much I enjoyed his comments.

  69. Ann says:

    Something I learned in my Criminal Justiice class was; One should NEVER assume, for it will most always make an

    ASS out of U & ME!

  70. Mary Beth says:

    Then I guess we’re all ASS***** as it’s impossible not to. Clever and not overused at all – I happen to agree by the way!

  71. Mary Beth says:

    I learned that from life.

  72. Michael says:

    Jim,

    I did my research after you called me “misinformed” and said I made “uneducated” comments regarding setbacks and traps on trails in Idaho. I read the Idaho Furbearer regulations (again) and also talked to Idaho Fish and Game personnel at both the Boise Head Office and Salmon Regional Office.

    Well Jim, it is you that is uneducated and misinformed. And that is especially bad since you claim to be up on the regulations and trapping. THERE ARE NO STATUTORY REGULATIONS IN IDAHO THAT PROHIBIT PLACING TRAPS ON USFS TRAILS OR THAT MANDATE SETBACKS FROM TRAILS! Simply put, I was right and you were wrong.

    Don’t try to mislead people with falsehoods. You said you read the regulations, so that means you either don’t comprehend well or you chose to deliberately mislead people.

  73. Coyote says:

    I’m getting really tiered of trappers claiming that their “sport” is regulated; there is no mandatory trap check in MT, nor are trappers required to post signs in areas where they kill animals in traps. I’m also getting very annoyed at the “argument” that if a trapper doesn’t abide the trapping regs he is just a “bad apple”…
    NOBODY knows what trappers are doing out there on our public lands! Several traps have injured compaion animals in January, some people are looking at horrendous vet bills! Who is going to reimburse these people? Nobody!!! Most of these traps were set illegally without name tags… A Golden Eagle had to be euthanized because his leg was caught in a Conibear – the trap had not name tag attached! A few years ago, a trapper shot a Great Pyrenees in his trap and threw the dog over a ravine! A woman’s German Shepherd died a gruesome death in a Conibear trap set ilegally in the Bitterrooot… Trapping needs to end!

  74. gline says:

    You are getting a little emotional Mary Beth.. maybe you should read the comments before you speak…

  75. gline says:

    Ok Mary beth: tell me how you are against trapping then, and the rest of us would like to know I’m sure. Give specifics though, broad accusations don’t really fly…… go on… give us some SPECIFICS.

  76. gline says:

    Hey orca: I like your respones! you are on the same page as me…

  77. gline says:

    “You really should obtain a copy and read it and understand it before you make such uneducated comments.”

    This quote is to Michael, I believe. In his defense I must say, First of all, most trappers do not follow the ‘rules’. Why would they? No one is policing them. Why bother shooting an animal if you can just let it lay in your trap for 2 or 3, 4 days? Die on its’ own. Why does it do you any harm? No one is policing you… and you are not there, so how does it bother you? Your not the one in the trap. If it is still alive by its’ own pure last death rites, you can shoot it and call it humane I suppose.

    Yet, really, it is interesting philosophically, that trappers claim to be so neutral on this blog, to make trapping more ‘warm’ and delighting, rather than explain the true cruelty and brutality involved. Not to mention the money you gain from a pelt. Racoons are going for what $50? or more? How else could you justify such an abusive act? In fact you are hiding your true identity, by seemingly trying to be so ‘neutral’ you become transparent. We can tell that anyone that would be neutral to trapping is actually condoning such a cruel practice or brainswashed by their significant other. It only makes common sense… that is your fault trappers, that you end up tripping over your own sentences and becoming so transparent. Keep writing though, it is very educational, but very sad at the same time. I can only hope you come back as a wild animal to be trapped, in your next life.

    For all the insults that will follow this reply, most of us can ‘read between the lines’ and see the truth for what it is.

  78. Leopold Brew says:

    Taz et al. – This discussion caught my attention and am captivated by the convesation, though I am not sure if it makes me sad or gives me hope. Seems like social norms are on the table here as the “new west” is being defined. I like that classic divisions are being challenged. The man loves division. I have always considered defending the things that are important to me and future generations to be part of my personal mission statement. These include Hunting, Healthy Ecosystems, Clean Waters, Public Lands, Free Rivers, Wilderness, ANWR and the like. I love bunnies and picas and I especially love deer. More than a non hunter could ever imagine. I consider the institution of hunting one of the most sacred dances available to humanity. I am not a trapper but I will defend them as I am a minority in the right on many other issues and I think it is vanishing institution and an important cultural skill.
    So, on bald rats:
    Humans are not evil. Humans have coexisted with nature very well for the last several hundred thousand years. Within the last hundred years or so it has become clear that our culture is indeed heading down the wrong road and interestingly, I think every poster agrees with that. We are however bald because we attained the intellignece to use the fur left from other animals rather than let animal skins go to waste or to waste energy growing our own fur.
    On human centrism.
    Taz’s argument is extremely anthropocentric with a hint of disney bias to boot. The classic – animals are people too argument. Yes I love my dog and it is fun to put words in his mouth, but he isn’t actually thinking those words. I love bunnies, they are cute but they would not be bunnies if they did not constantly look out for predators. It is their cause in life, not to dance on ice, but to eat and listen for and run from predators. Also, humans are omnivores, it is playing god to act otherwise. It is to suggest that our ideas are greater than natures ways or the ways of the creator if you prefer. I don’t care how the world came about, I am more interested in how it operates. Humans evolved intelligence to survive. It has served us very well. While lions were evolving speed bursts and sharp teeth to catch deer, humans got smarts. We are slow, nearly blind at night, stupid when in the rut, but dam we are the first and I contend only current species to have a true appreciation for life, and the fragility and beauty of earth. And for that we are special. We are allowed to think and use our heads and I think the best way to save this damn planet is to keep talking and build unity on the priority issues. What is next after we stop trapping? Do we stop lions from eating deer and teach them to grow carrots. Taz’s world seems to to be one where humans are too good for nature. Above It. Beyond It. Ready for Mars. It is a slippery slope and I think a scary world.
    Slippery Slopes – I never like slippery slope arguments very much I am not going to agree that we should not ban trapping because they will take hunting next. I just support responsible trapping. No one will take hunting from me. Unlike Protect Montana I am not blindly law abiding, I am moral. Frankly the Federal Government violated the 2nd ammendment a long time ago when they started arming themselves with missles and F-15′s. So that bit is moot as well.
    On the effectiveness of extremists: You will only create backlash. Wolf poachers and fur spraypainters and tree spikers are on the same side… The wrong one. Time for the radical centrists to speak up.

    P.S. On waste- I used to be all uppity and think I should eat every drop of what I kill. That was egocentric thinking. There is no waste in nature.

  79. Mary Beth says:

    Ann,

    I want to apologize for my snarky comments yesterday. I was having an awful day and it was uncalled for.

  80. Mary Beth says:

    Gline,

    Yes, my comments to ANN did get a bit emotional, and I aplogized to her for it. See? I’m human and imperfect, but I can admit when I’m wrong.

  81. Michael says:

    Leupold Brew,

    Your account on how humans lost their hair is not biologically possible. You could put coats on dogs for generations and they would still have their fur…..but this isn’t the issue here.

    That was a long, thoughtful, and sincere discourse you wrote. But, even so, it is still just a philosophical argument based on your personal views of how the world works – no worse or no better than many other writers in this discussion. You seem resigned to accept things, even unpleasant things, because that’s the way it has always been. Do we need to perpetuate a cruelty simply because we’ve always done it? And, is fur trapping necessary in today’s world as in the past?

    It could be argued that in some ways, man is above nature, for example, cities, machines, weapons etc. In others though, like hurricanes, disease, and asteroids, man is clearly not. Ultimately, nature is and will be the master of man. I totally agree with you that our culture is heading down the wrong path, but I don’t think eliminating trapping is part of that. Of course, like yours, that is just a personal opinion.

    It is true what you said about animals not thinking like we do, but, it is also true that they experience pain, joy, anxiety, and affection, as do we. Some anthropologists argue that what is considered conscious thought in humans is not really that, but rather people are predisposed to think a certain way genetically or instinctively.

    We may be the only species “to have a true appreciation for life, and the fragility and beauty of earth,” but that trait is not universal among us, by any means. Lastly, is trapping a “centrist” activity, or is it just as extreme in it’s way as your opinion that banning it would be?

    Sometimes when you follow the middle road, you follow no road at all.

  82. Mary Beth says:

    Actually Gline, I highly doubt anyone else on this thread cares about our little tiff here. Trapping isn’t one of my main concerns and I admit I don’t know a whole lot about it – at least not enough to comment intelligently on pros or cons. Commenting on trapping was never my intent here – I was merely voicing my support to another poster, who it seems, is as disillusioned as I am by this thread. This isn’t adding to the debate in anyway, so I’m done. Why would I bother to answer your questions when you won’t even attempt to answer mine except with contempt and sarcasm? My main objective in reading any New West articles and associated comments is to learn and expand my knowledge. For many, it seems to be a forum to b*tch and complain and to prove how RIGHT they are, regardless of any evidence to the contrary.

  83. Honey says:

    Cruel: Disposed to give pain to others; willing or pleased to
    hurt, torment, or afflict.

    Right: The legal or moral entitlement to do or refrain from doing something or to obtain or refrain from obtaining an action, thing or recognition in civil society. Compare with privilege, or a thing to which one has a just claim.

    Mercy: Alleviation of distress; showing great kindness toward the distressed.

    Merciless: Having or showing no mercy.

    After reading this long series of debates, I am struggling to see clearly what the actual positions on both sides are. I have a cloudy idea—I think people against trapping believe it is too “cruel” and the people for trapping believe it is their “right.”

    I don’t really have a clear-cut position on this issue myself, but I am trying to give both sides credence. After doing some research on the definitions of “cruel” and “right” I would have to say that trapping, when speaking for the entire group and not the individual, is not actually “cruel” by definition, though it is a “right.” To explain one must look at these definitions — I don’t think the entire group of trappers in this country are …“disposed to give pain,” or are … “willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict…” (though there is always a bad egg in the bunch somewhere). Rather, I think trappers just want the pelt and there aren’t really any other ways to get it–in good form–other than trapping. So, they are willing to overlook the manner in which the pelt is obtained. On the same hand, the entitlement to refrain from trapping or refrain from giving trapping recognition is also a “right.” So, how can anyone be correct here? You all are.

    I think by definition, trapping is more accurately “merciless.” Mercy is the “alleviation of distress…” Trapping does not really offer the alleviation of distress, at least not very quickly. I suppose a trapper does give mercy, however, if the animal is still alive when they come to check their trap—though probably not in the swiftest possible way of providing that mercy (i.e. shooting them to kill instantly).

    Most other forms of killing animals are not “cruel” either—such as road kill with automobiles. Drivers don’t usually set out with a disposition to give pain or feel willing or pleased to hurt, torment, or afflict. Nor do the cattle butchers—they are just doing their job so we can eat a burger tonight. Hopefully, the people that were “cruel” in the recent cattle industry tragedy, will be prosecuted to the fullest extent.

  84. Ann says:

    No apology needed. But I will accept it. I didn’t take you to be ‘snarky’ (lol@snarky). Sorry, but if you intended them to be I missed it.

    Fact is fact.

  85. Taz Alago says:

    Michael took the words out of my mouth, and said it better.

    It may be true that in nature there is no such thing as waste, but that’s in terms of raw materials. If you kill a bull elk and take nothing but the rack, that’s waste. It’s a waste of the animal’s life, of it’s breeding potential, of its value to the state as a game animal. Waste of game is a hunting violation in every state in the Union. An outfitter in my part of Oregon was convicted of doing just that on a trophy hunt, leaving the meat behind. Waste of animals by trappers taking unintended species is equivalent.

    The definition of anthropocentric is “considering human beings as the most significant entity of the universe.” Personally, on that scale I think humans are insignificant. Sadly for our fellow inhabitants on Earth, we’re dominant, and we ought then to take special care to act responsibly toward them. Trappers are more nearly anthropocentric in their refusal to grant animals any consideration. Kill any old way, is their motto, and the hell with what the victims feel. We’ve other means of subsisting now. We don’t have to act this way any more. The “tradition” of trapping belongs in the dumpster.

  86. Taz Alago says:

    Honey -

    Right. Trapping is merciless. While trappers may not all want to cause agony, they trap with the certain knowledge that they will. A trapper doesn’t kill his catch out of mercy, but to collect his animal. He’ll let this animal stay in the trap for days, so I don’t think the word “mercy” has any relevance to what a trapper does. Anybody who treated his dog, goat, cat, or pig this way would be up on a charge instantly, and be vilified by his neighbours to boot. How essentially different are wild animals from domestic ones, do you think? If someone adopted a coyote pup and raised it, then trapped and left it for a couple of days in the trap, eventually beating and suffocating it to death, would that be right or wrong?

  87. Timothy Border says:

    Most all human predators in this modern age support and practice Fair Chase pursuit of their prey. Trapping is a hold over of a bygone era in which cruelty to wildlife was in some measure a test of manhood. There is nothing fair or manly about trapping.

  88. Honey says:

    If someone trapped their own pet I feel that would be wrong, not to mention kind of demented. Are you suggesting that trappers in general trap their own pets (intentionally)?

    How essentially different are wild animals from domestic ones? I’d say the fundamental difference is fear of man, which is kind of a big difference. I’m not saying that just because wild animals fear man that makes it moral to trap them. But I do not think it is valid to compare animals intentionally targeted by trappers to house pets. Emotional ties are formed with house pets, which would make it unlikely for a trapper to desire it’s pelt.

    I don’t have the time to read back and see if you’ve named your stance on hunting big game–but if you feel it is okay to hunt for trophy antlers, sport, or meat, then it should be okay to trap for trophy pelt, sport, or meat. The solution seems to be that we need to find a trapping device that everyone can feel okay with. One that kills quickly rather than injures, and yet does not destroy the pelt. Abolishing trapping altogether does not seem the logical answer when the opposition’s main problem with it is the manner it is done, not the act itself. Would you feel more comfortable if all traps had to be cage or box traps and the trapper was required to kill the animal instantly by firearm?

  89. Michael says:

    Honey,

    Personally, I despise the way that trapping is done, but I also do not care for the end result. There is no reason to kill these animals for their fur, a luxury item, in this day and age.

    I don’t feel there is any difference between a coyote and a domestic dog, as far as killing them. So, because one is not familiar with a creature personally, it’s somehow OK to kill it in a horrific way? I work in law enforcement, and domestic animals treated like trapped ones would result in a cruelty to animals citation (Montana Code 45-8-211). Trappers are protected by an “exception” under the statute.

    I think a comparison between hunting and trapping is that hunting involves, for lack of a better term, “fair chase”, where the animal has a chance to escape in many instances. Trapping is more a practice of executing restrained animals (a “box” trap or cage would not change this). Although I personally wouldn’t do it, I don’t have a problem if people want to hunt furbearers rather than trap them.

  90. Taz Alago says:

    No, Honey, I wasn’t suggesting that trappers intentionally trap their own pets. I asked if it would be OK with you if they or anyone else did. I’m not limiting the question to pets, either. Farm animals are also protected by law from abuse. Would it be OK to abuse a chicken? Would it be acceptable to trap the chicken with a leg-hold trap, for instance, and leave it for a few days before killing it?

    Conibear traps and neck snares are supposed to kill quickly and are in wide use. Neck snares can take quite a while to kill, leading to “jelly head,” a condition where body fluids are trapped in the head by the snare wire. Conibear traps sometimes fail to kill, mauling the animal who then lingers on.

    All the traps available are indiscriminate. Even a trap that kills instantly 100% of the time will kill unintended victims. I don’t believe that’s OK, do you?

    Cage traps would be a big improvement. If trapping was limited to cages only, and they were checked every day, much of the public distaste for trapping would disappear. Do you live in Montana? If so, you should seriously propose this to the the trappers’ association and the FWP. I would be interested to hear their response.

    I don’t oppose hunting.

  91. Protect Montana says:

    Well, I took a little breather from talking here and just watched the stupidity from a distance. I see people battling people over what they said, and what she said. It is amazing when you step away from it all, the things you will realize. Those against trapping are so extream that they have deteriorated without their most hated enemy, Me. They have continiued the debate at full force with very little oposition and slowly have started to turn against those that were never even against them in the first place. I cannot believe that most of you could ever stand true for anything in your life. I commend all of you anti trappers for sticking to it, even if you do not make a lick of sence. I am sorry that I ever entered myself in a battle of mindless minds. I understand that in life I should continue with intelligent thought, but I have a feeling that you people do not run on that wave length. Please, do the world a favor and tie your fingers so you do not spread your ignorant seed any farther than it has already gone.

    As for all of my supporters, thank you very much. You know were to find me.

    Over and Out.

    Protect Montana

  92. jim says:

    I would like to share a true story with you all. My father and I went on our annual elk hunt this last November 1st. The area we hunt is fairly high in altitude. Between 6 and 8 thousand feet. A snowstorm one week earlier dumped 10-12 inches of snow. That in conjunction with the foul wet weather for the 2 –3 weeks prior to this storm was enough to prompt the majority of the elk to head down hill in the direction of their wintering grounds.
    Opening day proved to be rather slow in the way of finding any legal elk to harvest. I saw one cow and three other sets of fresh tracks. However the wolfs were in abundance. We had between 15 or 20 of them within ½ mile ratios of us. In my opinion there were three different packs. Although it may have only been 2. I speculate they were hanging back from the main herds feeding on the wounded and weak. They howled as they hunted the better part of the day. At one point my dad had one within 50 yards of him. He was a little freaked out by it. I found the whole experience to be interesting to say the least.
    The next morning things were much the same as far as elk hunting was concerned. We talked about pulling camp and heading for lower ground. But it was so quiet and peaceful since most of the other hunters that would normally be in the area had already done just that. So for that reason and the fact we weren’t convinced all the elk were gone and that more may return because of nicer weather and the snow had melted, we stayed.
    A couple of weeks prior to this trip I scouted an area near our camp. Prospects looked pretty good and I even saw a beautiful 5-point bull. So that afternoon I set out to hunt this spot. As I eased my way down the ridge I wasn’t noticing any fresh sign. It was beginning to get late and I had pretty much given up on any hopes of seeing an elk. I decided to give up on being quiet and turned my attention towards getting down the mountain to where my father was to pick me up. It was at that very moment when I heard a very familiar sound. It sounded like an elk does when it is exiting the country. My heart pounded. All of my attention was focused in the direction the noise was coming from. Then my eyes caught movement down off the ridge in the creek bottom. I pulled up my binoculars to fide it was indeed a legal bull elk. Adrenalin raged through me by now. The elk was in somewhat thick brush when I first saw him. Then went behind some pine trees. I pulled my gun to my shoulder as the elk stepped out from behind the trees, I made conformation it was him, drew a bead and my mark was true .You cant imagine my excitement and appreciation. Now my freezer would be full of meat.
    As I made my way up to him, I noticed a hole in the hide quarter that was facing up. The hair was matted back around the hole where he had been licking the wound. I stuck my finger in the hole and gave it a sniff. The smell was disgusting. It made me gag. My heart sank as I cut around and down into the wound. The flesh was marbled with green at least a 3 inch radius around the wound as deep as I could go with my knife.
    This left me with a decision I did not want to have to make. Do I tag it and gut it out in hopes that it is not septic and some of it may be salvageable or do I walk away from it and assume its wholly spoiled, running the slight risk someone else may see what I am doing and turn me in to fish and game assuming I am wasting meat. Thus prompting an investigation. I know given the severity of the wound most people would have walked away. I decided to tag him, thinking it was the best thing to do. Please let me apologize in advance for the grossness of this all. What happened next is by far the most gruesome thing I think I have ever seen or smelled in my life. As I began to make my incision to gut him out, I noticed a bulge about the size of two fists just under the skin of his abdomen. As my knife slit thru the pocket it burst and a mixture of what I believed to be urine feces and blood poured out. I puked. It was horrible. It was really starting to sink in for me the magnitude in which this poor animal had suffered. It is at this moment in the story where I need to FF things for you. In the later stages of caring for the meat, (trimming the obvious bad meat away from the potentially ok meat) I found the bullet that made the wound. It had traveled through one entire hindquarter, thru the pelvis and large intestine and lodged in the opposite hindquarter in which it started. (Fyi, there was a hunt in a area whose border was very close to where I put this elk out of his misery that opened approximately 2 weeks before our hunt.) I can tell you base on what I seen the wound was at least a week old. I don’t know how the wolves didn’t find him the day before I relieved him from his sufferings; they were so close to him. I don’t know if the hunter that wounded him made a noble effort to retrieve him or not. However I do know this, this great animal suffered an atrocity that is greater and longer than any I have seen or heard of from the cause of a trapper. I also know this, what happened to this elk is not a unique occurrence in the world of hunting. It happens so much more often then most people realize. It happens for a lot of reasons. Ignorance is a major one. Simply not caring is another. By accident is yet another. Now am I ready to denounce hunting because of it. Hell no! It is still necessary. It is part of what we are. We are Paleolithic hunter, gatherers, we are predators, and we are human! Why do so many want to pretend we are something we aren’t?
    My point is this, these people that want to denounce trapping also wish to denounce hunting. If they say they don’t they are either lying or they are hypocritical to their own cause. Which is the unnecessary suffering of animals. It’s going to be done in baby steps for them. They are fully aware that currently there are to many people in the west that hunt to wage war on. So they want you on their side in the fight against trapping. Once they have accomplished this, you can rest assured you are next. So I ask this of all hunters of the west and anyone that does not want their rights taken away, please take a stand on this please get involved. Check out http://www.myspace/protectmontana.com
    Get involved anyway you can. Now is the time not to be quiet. Thank you for your time.

    Sincerely, Jim

  93. Michael says:

    Jim,
    I didn’t think you would show your face here again after you showed how ignorant you were on Idaho trapping regulations. Don’t tell anti-trappers that they are “lying” after your debacle.

    Your fear-mongering over trappers first, hunters next, is tiresome. You never seem to be able to figure it out that when you killed the elk you didn’t try to wound it first, but rather your intent was a “clean” kill, which is not the case with trapping. The other point you ignore is that trapping impacts other recreationist’s activities, while hunting does not.

    Sure, it isn’t a perfect world and it never will be, and there are painful stories constantly concerning animals and people. But, that doesn’t excuse your attitude about excusing atrocities simply because the world is cruel and harsh in it’s reality. Your writings are simply justifications for what you do, nothing more, nothing less.

    It’s no longer the Paleolithic and we don’t live like hunters of that era anymore. Hunter-gatherers require a very low population density for their way of life. You are a “Paleolithic” thinker and hunter because you choose to imagine yourself that way. It is not genetic.

    PM, I was sad to see that you degenerated into name-calling on your last, final post after many thoughtful comments previously, even though I did not always agree with you. You have assumed that only you have an inside track on the meaning of life and the realities of the world, and thus, everyone that differs from you is less intelligent. You may say that trying to ban trapping is extreme, but I would say the only reason trapping is not considered extreme by some is that it has been practiced and allowed for so long. If people had never trapped before, and you proposed instituting trapping now, it would be thought of as a very extreme measure and would never fly.

  94. orca says:

    Notice when it gets down to having to answer questions about their lack of participation in conservation projects and their privileged status as far as commercially exploiting wildlife, the trappers just fade away? Guess that’s easier than facing reality.

  95. Albert says:

    There’s a big difference between hunting and trapping, and evidently Jim, you don’t get it. There will always be irresponsible people, hunters or not. Trappers today are wholly irresponsible–their traps catch and kill anything attracted to the bait. That could even be your own dog, Jim. Or a moose, like the one in anguish and starved by a conibear trap on his face. Or a small child. A trap is not fair chase, not fair anything. It’s dangerous, uncontrolled and unmonitored. It has no place in today’s world, and in your heart you know it.

  96. jim says:

    Michael, I have made two different attempts to rebuttal you. For some reason this page mysteriously swallowed it. It was quite odd, the manner in which it happened. Anyways I’m not going to waist much more of my time on you, except to say- It is obvious that I bruised your over inflated ego. I find it indicative to your foul nature, particularly since you proclaim to be involved with law enforcement that you would bash on another law enforcement agency like Idaho Fish and Game proclaiming they don’t do their job

  97. Ann says:

    Trapping is no longer an only means to get fur. At one time it had it’s place, (not saying I condoned it although I have known people that did trap). Drinking and Driving didn’t USE TO BE as dangerous as it is now either. BUT because of irresponsible people, innocence becomes the victim. Rules needed and need changing.
    Trapping is cruel no matter how you look at it.

  98. Michael says:

    Jim,
    You are unbelievable. I never said Idaho F & G didn’t do their job. I just said there is no law requiring that traps be set off trails. I said maybe the warden didn’t know the departments own regulations since you proclaimed there that there were such rules. There are no such laws in Idaho. You can’t refute that. It’s black and white. Maybe you should talk in person to the wardens like I did.

    As far as over-inflated egos, why won’t you admit you were wrong? What does that say about your ego? You do a good job of name calling, for example “over-inflated ego,” and “foul nature,” which is what people do when they know they are wrong.

  99. gline says:

    “Commenting on trapping was never my intent here.”

    Mary beth: this blog IS about trapping. your above comment is really strange.

    That is why I said you are on “the fence”. I disrespect people who have nothing but neutral comments and then insult others that actually have the guts to voice their feelings. It’s like you are trying to stay safe. why bother? you arent safe, your neutral opinions are out there, and you will be attacked or agreed with anyway. so why bother trying to stay neutral? Its annoying.

    What I care about is ethical treatment of animals and regarding this page specifically, it is about the cruel, inhumane non sport of trapping. Hence, the reasons for me to be on this blog-

    Not to spend my time and energy on refuting it’s voice. (PM Montana ain’t wasting any time on that) It is high time we discuss this issue as a society. And may the ethical and humane side win.

    In addition to the torture and abuse animals must endure daily in medical labs, slaughter houses, circuses etc, all around the world to satisfy human need, the wildlife must endure a most likely long and painful death of trapping. At least in the sport of hunting, most animals are shot and killed quickly. If not, they are pursued and killed if the hunter is ethical and skilled enough to do that. Most likely the intent all along was for the meat to feed his family.

    My agenda is not personal, but an obligation to make this world more sane. (It will never work the way I want it to but I will die trying) My intent is not for money, gained from “pelts”. The word pelt in itself is strange – how we distance ourselves from animals. I sure wouldn’t want to lose my pelt while starving, and dying from shock caught in a trap I cant get out of. the only option I have is to eat my own leg. then the total and utter fear I would feel from seeing something moving and coming toward me with a gun while I am in this pain and shock.

    Some of you may disagree that animals are sentient beings. If they are not sentient beings, that sure makes it easier to torture them. If you believe they have sentience, you will have empathy. and the money you gained from their pelts will feel like blood money. I say again that hunting for food is a different story – that would be between you and that ONE animal you killed for food. In contrast trappers take many, many animals purely for their fur to sell to the middleman that will eventually sell at a MUCH higher price to some rapper in L.A. raising dogs for dog fighting. You see trapping isnt about quality time with the kids. Its about money, and trappers you aren’t even making that much are you? working for the big city folks. great.

    That is what will play out now, whether the majority of this society denies or accepts the fact that trapping is cruel and selfish.

  100. gline says:

    I am having the same problem as well, someone mentioned their posts not being posted. is this monitoring or just a bug in the system??? (If this is monitoring and this gets copied twice, I apologize beforehand.)

    anyway:
    “Commenting on trapping was never my intent here”

    Mary beth: this IS a blog on trapping. your comment is very strange. Its like you are trying to stay safe. You aren’t safe when you voice your opinions (even if they are neutral) – people will either disagree and tell you why or agree. Its very warm and comforting when all people agree. but that is definitely not the case here.

    My intent and obligation is to make this world more ethical and humane. And I believe animals are sentient beings. (they feel pain, joy and frustration) It is much easier to torture an animal (or human) if you believe they are NOT sentient. you can rationlize your actions, or better yet, if the subject is not talked about, you dont have even do that. you can live in your immorality. It is high time this subject is talked about in this society. the majority will win this ethical dilemma someday- and hopefully the humane side wins.
    I draw the line at hunting for food. at least the animal is shot quickly and if not, pursued and shot so that it doesnt die a long painful death. trapping does not do that. In fact I wonder if there are trappers who dont even bother to check their lines? the animal will die eventually… unless it is because you want the integrity of the pelt that is sold to the middleman and then to a rapper in LA for a MUCH higher price than the trapper ever got. Working for the city folks boys? great.

    Before you attack, be aware that I am vegan. Which means I dont eat meat, or any products derived from an animal. This includes the use of paintbrushes, leather shoes, or any product that has animal parts in it. (We have technology now, we dont need to use animals the way we do.) Milk would be great, except that that cow is slaughtered in the end. So, the argument of me doing the same thing to animals that trapping does definitely wont fly.

  101. gline says:

    I am having the same problem as well, as Jim mentioned above -their posts not being posted. is this monitoring or just a bug in the system???

    anyway:
    “Commenting on trapping was never my intent here”

    Mary beth: this IS a blog on trapping. your comment is very strange. Its like you are trying to stay safe. You aren’t safe when you voice your opinions (even if they are neutral) – people will either disagree and tell you why or agree. Its very warm and comforting when all people agree. but that is definitely not the case here.

    My intent and obligation is to make this world more ethical and humane. And I believe animals are sentient beings. (they feel pain, joy and frustration) It is much easier to torture an animal (or human) if you believe they are NOT sentient. you can rationlize your actions, or better yet, if the subject is not talked about, you dont have even do that. you can live in your immorality. It is high time this subject is talked about in this society. the majority will win this ethical dilemma someday- and hopefully the humane side wins.
    I draw the line at hunting for food. at least the animal is shot quickly and if not, pursued and shot so that it doesnt die a long painful death. trapping does not do that. In fact I wonder if there are trappers who dont even bother to check their lines? the animal will die eventually… unless it is because you want the integrity of the pelt that is sold to the middleman and then to a rapper in LA for a MUCH higher price than the trapper ever got. Working for the city folks boys? great.

    Before you attack, be aware that I am vegan. Which means I dont eat meat, or any products derived from an animal. This includes the use of paintbrushes, leather shoes, or any product that has animal parts in it. (We have technology now, we dont need to use animals the way we do.) Milk would be great, except that that cow is slaughtered in the end. So, the argument of me doing the same thing to animals that trapping does definitely wont fly.

  102. mary says:

    I suspect most trappers never see the animals dying in traps. They set them, walk away and come back to dead animals. Contrast that with a pet owner, even one with a dog on a lead (working dogs such as Kaerlian bear dogs, wildlife tracking dogs and yes, search and rescue dogs are also out in the woods) and they have to watch their animal die a horrific death due to an indiscriminate killing device left in the woods. Hunters watch their prey die, through a scope on a rifle (large game). They don’t walk away. They experience the whole process and are responsible for a humane death of an intended individual. They don’t leave loaded guns in the woods. Traps essentially are that. In ID last year, almost 200 traps were discovered along the Lochsa river with dead animals in them. A trapper did not retrieve his traps. Think about that.

  103. Michael says:

    Mary,

    I am interested in knowing who found all these traps along the Lochsa River. Was it Idaho F & G? If so, there should have been name or ID tags on the traps, from which they could prosecute. Also, where along the Lochsa were they?

    I quit hiking over there a number of years ago during the winter due to the large number of traps I encountered. I remember particularly the five legholds set at the Mocus Point Trailhead at the packbridge.

  104. Protect Montana says:

    Michael

    You are a vegan and you refuse to use any part of any animal?
    You are not ok with animals being killed, but you are ok with hunting? What exactly are you saying? Your mentality proves that your kind will soon be after the hunters. You talk with a forked tongue Michael.

    Mary

    I would just like you to know that I understand the power of propeganda and how it can effect people. But Mary, I have been trapping for years and I have never caught a pet. And like I stated earlier, I have only caught one animal that I did not intend to and that was a rabbit. Mary, please do not become one of the many who have to fall for the lies and deceit of those who bash the trapper. I just find it a little queer that in all my years of trapping I have never heard the horror stories that these people have recently put out. And again, this is Montana. The Last Best Place, and we call it that because it has not been ruined by activists yet. But if we allow these people to continue it will definitly not be Montana for long.

    Protect Montana

  105. Mary Beth says:

    So now people who admit they’re here to learn about an issue before voicing an opinion on something they don’t know about get attacked? Maybe I should change my strategy after all and spout B.S. without having any facts to back it up. I didn’t realize giving a compliment and supporting a poster I respected would lead to so much venom!

  106. Taz Alago says:

    PM, you’re not the only one who finds it a little queer that you’ve never heard the horror stories recounted above. But since quite a few come from newspapers, and the links are posted above, you can read them now.

    PM, you’re a remarkable trapper! You always shoot your catch, even if it knocks the price down for the pelts! You check your traps every 24 hours! And most impressive, you’ve only trapped one unintended animal, and that a poor bunny!

    Most serious traplines run about 200 traps total. You’re 33 (right?) and have been trapping “all your life,” so maybe you started about age 15. You have a day job now, so probably don’t run more than 100 traps, otherwise you couldn’t check them every 24 hours. So, say you trap 60 days a year for 18 years, that’s 1,080 days, times 100 traps, that’s 108,000 “trap days.” Trapping season lasts longer than 60 days, and before you had a job you may have set more traps, so that number seems safe. So out of 108,000 opportunities to catch the wrong animal, it only happened once! I don’t think any trapper can truthfully claim better than that! You are a wonder.

  107. Protect Montana says:

    Mary Beth, I am confused. Are you saying that I spouted venom toward you? I have done just the contrary, I have only defended you. I am very sorry if you have felt offended over anything.

    Mr. Alago, I only run about ten traps at a time, and no more than 15. I am not sure were you get any of your numbers. And when I was younger I ran less than that. You do not have to put out a trapline of 200 traps to be a successful trapper.

    I have a question for all. If you moved to Montana from anouther state. What made you want to move here?

    Protect Montana

  108. Taz Alago says:

    PM, you’re certainly not a representative trapper. I’m from Oregon, trappers here generally run 100 or more traps. In two of the incidents mentioned on this page, the abandoned traps along the Lochsa River in Idaho numbered 130 and were set along a groomed snowmobile trail. You can confirm that with Idaho Fish & Wildlife. The traps were set in early winter of 2007 and recovered that summer. In the trapping incident near Dubois Wyoming where at least 16 deer were killed, the state confiscated 271 leg-hold traps and 121 snares. You can read that story at http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/article.php?art_id=2626 . If you want to make any money as a trapper, you gotta put out lots of traps. If you don’t make money at it, why do you trap?

    I got your age off your webpage. So, if you only ran an average of eight traps/day two months/year for 18 years, that’s still 8,640 trap days. And only one unintended victim…

  109. jim says:

    There you go again taz,taking what people say out of context. He said for years on all his life. Its ok, little buddy, we understand you cant help it , its just a way of life for you.

  110. jim says:

    Taz I got a message for you and your buddies. You will not win this. At least not in Montana. And it wont be in Idaho either. Currently in Idaho, there is a bill going before the legislature to protect peoples right to be normal, and hunt and trap if they wish. I will do everything in my power to see that Montana follows suit. You will never win the support of the majority of hunters. They will see though your bs. I will see to that. So just because you have a rich bird hunter in your back pocket, doesn’t mean you have the voice of every hunter. So you might want to start bracing yourselves now. I know how fragile you are. When it does happen, the loss you will all suffer, I want you to remember something, you started it. Perhaps it will be a valuable lesson in how to mind your own business and respecting other peoples rights , Even if its not your way .

  111. Michael says:

    Protect Montana,

    If you scroll back, you will see that it was “gline” on 3-04-08 that said he or she was a vegan and refused to use any part of an animal, not me. So, I would find it honorable on your part to correct your “forked tongue” remark concerning me.

    Michael

  112. jim says:

    I am pretty sure Pm was referring to gline instead of michael about being a vegan. Unless I have missed where Michael stated being a vegan as well. At any rate your point is very valid pm. It makes no sense at all to be 100% against using ANY part of an animal and then proclaim you are ok with hunting. After all we don’t need it any more , we have technology now right gline? You people remind me of sheep. But you probably don’t understand what that means since most of you have never spent much if any time with sheep.

  113. Michael says:

    No Jim,

    I never said I was a vegan at any time, you didn’t miss it.
    I do think you are getting very sarcastic with everybody that disagrees with you. PM has generally held his standards to a higher level, and I think you would do well to follow his lead.

    As far as trapping being normal, it is definitely not the norm in Idaho. According to Idaho F & G, there were only about 890 active trappers in 2006 in Idaho. Concerning people’s rights, it depends on your perspective. Trappers may feel trapping is their right, but those who do not appreciate encountering traps and animals caught in them, could also feel their rights are infringed when their outdoor experience is ruined.

    I don’t think heated, bombastic, rhetoric will sway anyone in Montana, from either side of this debate. I was just at a trap release workshop for dog owners last weekend. Two trappers attended and they chastised and ridiculed a man who was present that just lost his dog to a snare. Needless to say, the trapper’s demeanor didn’t win them any friends or converts.

    Whether trapping will ever be prohibited on public lands in Montana remains to be seen. It will probably take a long time. But it did happen in Colorado and Arizona. And, if I remember correctly, the first initiative failed in Arizona, but passed the second time. Montana is getting more liberal all of the time, and that generally means trouble for the trapping mentality.

    As far as losing this fight, for those of us against public land trapping, it is better to have tried and failed, than to have never tried at all.

  114. Protect Montana says:

    Michael, I am sorry for my error above. It was gline and not you that stated that.

    People, I trap because that is what I like to do. And I do not trap through the whole season because there is very few area’s for me to trap. I do not believe in taking more animals than is healthy for their populations. And it does not matter if I trap for a profit or any other reason, I TRAP.
    And about your comments above. All those trappers that you claim did all of those bad things. If it is true then they would be punished for their actions. Just the same as a drunk driver. But since there are a few nasty people that claim to be trappers, then by all means punish us all. And why we are at it lets punish all drivers for the sins of the few. Lets punish all doctors because some are wicked. Lets punish all men because some are wronge.
    God gave you eyes so you could see, and he gave you ears so you could listen. But you have evolved to blindness and deafness. The chance of getting any of you to close your mouths and open your minds is about as likely as me stopping my trapping.

    Protect Montana

  115. jim says:

    Michael and all against trapping on public land. What would have been better is to approach this matter in a diplomatic way. Try to work together with the trappers and fish and game to create terms we can all live with,instead of going on a all out witch hunt ,claiming ,and or implying all trappers are bad people. I can tell you this ,as for PM, He is one of the greatest people I know. He is my brother. Ive known him all his life. So you will have to pardon me if I get a bit emotional when someone tries to tell me my brother is an evil person if he traps.Or when someone wants to take away “rights” just because they disagree or don’t understand.

  116. Ann says:

    So I take it, we have evolved to destroying animals, PAINFULLY I might add.
    For something none of us really need. Clothing. After all you can get cloths anywhere, any style, for little or nothing.
    Yes we kill to eat. whether it’s a carrot you pull savagely from it’s LIFE grip of the earth to chew on or you take the last beat of an animals heart so you can have a steak or burger, last I checked you needed both of those to stay alive. BUT to use the most painful, worst type of death imaginable to feed an industry that really isn’t needed, for the sake of trying to prove you can set a trap, (which by the way, what right of passage is that?) and catch something and make it suffer.
    Now that’s what I call evolving.
    You want to run a trap line set a fake trap and photo what goes by, you could get as much for one photograph as you could an entire lifetime of trapping and casing the animals. Doesn’t smell quite the same either.

  117. Michael says:

    I agree that working with F & G and trappers would be a way to possibly come up with “terms we can all live with.” But, it has been tried several times in the recent past with no results. I have been at a House committee meeting in Helena and a FWP meeting with the commissioners where tightening up regulations in Montana was tried. For example: mandatory checks, signs, longer setbacks from hiking trails etc.

    The Montana Trapper’s Association was there in force and they are very well-organized and vocal. They opposed every attempt to find compromise. I know their position was “if we give an inch, they’ll take a mile.” They never were interested in finding ways to reduce conflicts with other recreationists. I did sense, though, that the commissioners were, and the head of FWP definitely was and he said so. I know there is a movement currently in FWP to do just that, but whether they can go far enough to mitigate conflicts remains to be seen. Montana has many suggested trapping rules, that if followed by all trappers, would have helped a lot. But, they are only suggestions, not with any force of law.

    A good example of trappers doing their own cause harm is the Lee Creek and Bass Creek Recreation areas near where I live. Lee Creek is a popular cross-country ski area and commonly the skiers have dogs. You’d think the trappers would steer away from there, but they don’t. Bass Creek was an issue that made the local papers when a trapper placed “body gripping traps”, according to his warning signs, right in the recreation area used by many hikers and their pets year round. It’s probably the most used area in the Bitterroot Mountains during the winter and summer. To me, that is just causing conflicts. I suggested, by letter recently, to the commission, FWP, and governor that maybe they could close some of these heavily used areas to trapping as a possible solution.

    It will take trappers that are concerned to push their own organizations to find compromise, if that’s what they want. I just haven’t seen it yet.

  118. mary says:

    PM: There are many people, including those who hunt and eat meat, who lately have encountered traps. I think because there is an organization that is tracking this, the reports are coming in more freqently. Our dog got into a little connibear on a heavily used ski trail into a Forest Service cabin. Most people who ski in have dogs as this is a trail that is not accessible by snowmobiles. We have skied into this cabin with our dogs for over 10 years. The trap was not set at the regulated distance and was in a campground. It was heavily baited and we smelled it, but did not know what it was til she encountered the trap. My point is that for almost 20 years I have lived in MT and hiked, skied etc in the woods. Before that I lived in UT and NV. Now whether or not I am legitimate in your eyes or one of those interlopers is beyond me (were you born in MT?). I had not encountered traps until last year, but have found out there have been incidents before this. I think that because pelt prices are going up, there are more traps in the woods. And many, perhaps not all, trappers, do not avoid heavily recreated trails/places. Another popular ski trail used primarily by people with dogs and children (who sled along the road) has had an active trap line right along the road for the last 2 years. A dog was caught in a snare and almost died last year. The snare was right below the road bed. Another dog got in a snare at this location this year. Without any posting, how will people know? Because this activity and its consequences is getting more exposure, people are concerned about the ability to recreate safely on public lands. Again, working dogs on leashes are at risk too. Imagine being lost in the woods (we hear about this regularly) and a search and rescue dog intent on finding you encounters one of these devices and is injured or dies….well, that sets back your changes of being rescued. That concerns me.
    So, I’m not reacting to propaganda. I watched my dog get into a trap and heard her yelp and jump. This is real. I still don’t think many trappers have experienced this because they walk away and pick up the dead bodies later. That does not seem responsible or ethical.

  119. Mary Beth says:

    No, PM, that comment was for Gline… sorry for the confusion! I continue to have the utmost in respect for you. Seems this tread is so convoluted no one can keep track of what is being written.

  120. Protect Montana says:

    Mary Beth, I was born in Idaho and was moved to Montana when I was eight years old. Montana became a dream come true for me, it was wild. There was so much public land free for me to roam. But over time that has changed so much, and it truely brings my heart to tears. Mary I do not put you into that class of interlopers, nor do I nessasaraly put any others into it. I do not personally know any of you, except my brother Jim. I try hard in life not to judge people or to take away things from people. I just wish that the rest could do the same. You do not know me, and you probably never will. But I always look out for my neighbors, and I am always there to help. I am not the apidamy of evil, or a sadistic murderer. But all of this aside I do believe that trappers should work togather with concerned citizens and do what is best for the safety of all.

    Ann, man evolved to hunt and kill far before time was ever recorded. We have not changed, at least not all of us. Even in the bible it states that man would take the beast. Now I am not a religious person, but so many of you live by those words written in that thick black book.
    Just think of this.
    If man would have stuck to what God had given us, and lived by the bounty of the beast and the land. Well then we would not have most of the problems that we have today. So personally I think that mans evolution to what we are today is crap. It has been acheived through greed and ignorance. And yes Ann, I do live with all those things and I abide by what we have done. But Ann that is survival. There will come a day in the future when things will not sit as bountiful as they do today and all the arts of hunting and trapping will be lost to most. And it will be people like you that will come crawling to the hunter and the trapper to feed you , to cover your freezing body. All because you have forgotten were you come from. Take a look at our crazy world, take a look around you. We have become a discusting people. We murder each other, we still from each other, and we are rising to our own distruction. A lot of you are going to open that mouth and say that this is irrelivant to the discussion, but it is so relivant. You all in your ignorance are actually attacking one of the most honest walks of life. You can try to justify your attack with whatever pictures or words that you want, but you are still wronge. With all things there are always wicked people who take away in your minds the way that things really work. You look at the trapper as an inhumane mindless demon that tramps through the hills with no regard for life. When in fact, most of us are so much the opposite. I am tired of being classed by you people, I am tired of your ignorance. Straight up, I would place a bet that none of you have lived your life as pure and free from sin as I. I would bet this because I know very much who I am. I hide nothing about myself because I have nothing to hide. I have always thought about you first with all of my actions, and I have done this all of my life. Do yourself a favor and stop picking a fight, because I will fight. And I will win, I swear this to you. But when I win, I will not bring myself to your ignorance and blast off trying to destroy what you love. Leave people alone and enjoy life, and if you do not like what other people do then just remember. They probably do not like what you do either, the only difference is they are not attacking you.

    Sincerely

    Protect Montana

  121. Ann says:

    PM;
    Yes we EVOLVED key word there. We no longer NEED to go out and make an animal suffer for our own NEED other than the NEED to KILL. Hunting is a NEED to feed. Trapping is a need for WHAT?
    So Face it. If you are a ‘trapper’, and you continue to set traps, any kind other than a live trap, you have no regard for the life of an animal. You Don’t NEED to trap that animal to survive, If it were just for the hide, You could go out and shoot one, I’ve patched some pretty big holes in coyote hides, and it wasn’t deducted from the cost of the pelt. So don’t try to get all high and mighty and try to RATIONALIZE, inhumane treatment of animals. I’m not above shooting gophers in a field, nor am I afraid to put a BB in the butt of the neighbor’s dog if it’s in with my animals. But you won’t catch me out there running a trap line. No matter how you look at it there is UNECESSARY suffering in the trapping of animals.
    They used to tar and feather people too, I know we still hang horse thieves, But trapping ??????
    I’m not ATTACKING any one. What I said is true. Animals caught in Traps SUFFER!! You can NOT deny that.

  122. Taz Alago says:

    Oh PM,
    You are such a piece of work. I have seldom come across somebody who so relentlessly compliments himself. Truly, compared to you we others are all dross. But still, for all your self-proclaimed virtue, you torment animals for fun. Personally, were you Saint Virtue Himself, I would still condemn you for willfully abusing animals in pursuit of your own wilderness fantasy. You have a good time playing the noble heroic self-reliant mountain man, all dressed up in your furs, and the animals pay the price in agony. You’re playing a game, PM, and you pay for it with the suffering of others.

  123. jim says:

    Easy now tazzy boy, dont get yer gonna get your nickers in a bind.
    Rod, I love ya man. I’m so glad to have you as a brother.

  124. chad says:

    I come from a small town known as Salmon ID. Grew up on a ranch and was a range rider (chase cows around the mountains) for many summers. I have personally never came across a single trap. As for dogs getting in traps you have to think and realize what the dog is doing to get in the trap. dogs/cats are predators and are always looking for pray when in the wild. When your pet is running around sniffing stuff he is looking for potential game or other predators. A trapper puts his trap were he sees signs of what ever animal he is trying to catch. The pet also detects this potential meal. If your dog found this animal what do you think your pet is going to do. Your pets are likely to kill more animals than traps. Ever seen a dog/cat kill it’s pray? Trapping is cruel, Shut-up life is cruel.

    What do you suggest we do when a beaver dams up a ditch and floods some field (no the field didn’t need watering) or dams a culvert and washes out the road or muskrats and gophers dig up a crick/ditch bank and it washes out? Ever try hunting one of these animals? Good luck. Yes traps are a necessary part of life. Not a fashion or fad that goes in and out over time.

    I would like to have a middle solution to this problem like trappers marking a tree close to trap, only problem is the environmentalist would not leave the traps alone. shame on them not letting their be a decent solution to this issue.

  125. Michael says:

    Chad, I live in Montana, but not that far from Salmon up in the Bitterroot Valley. I will say that my experience has been quite different than yours. I’ve run into traps numerous times in Idaho and Montana. Just about every creek drainage on either side of the Bitterroot Valley has them (Lost Horse, Bear, Big, Kootenai, Sweeney, Sweathouse, Eightmile, and Bass Creeks to name a few) and I’ve seen them numerous times along the Lochsa River and it’s side drainages over Lolo Pass in Idaho.

    Closer to your home, I have encountered traps many times while hiking below the road end at Corn Creek on the Salmon River. It’s a great place to go to see wintering wildlife. On one February trip, I found eight in four miles of trail. Those were leghold traps, five of which were placed right in the trail at Killum Point, where the trail is blasted out of a cliff. On another hike along the Salmon, my wife and I found several snares in the trail before Gunbarrel Creek, a couple miles down. Last winter (2006), there were traps at Gunbarrel, Legend, and Fawn Creeks, and two more just above Lantz Bar. This winter, I decided to not go down there because of all the traps.

    Yes, life on this world is often cruel, but does that give you an excuse to be cruel yourself? I don’t think it does. I tend to think we can be bigger than that, if we choose.

  126. Vanessa says:

    Hey I have an idea for all you furry animal lovers. How about we ban all type of hunting in the whole U.S.A. and when we get that job is done we can go around the world and make it a universal ban. That way the animals are safe and cozy in their natural habitat. Yeah, and when all the third world countries die off because they have no more to eat we know we did the right thing!! Sounds absolutly insain??? Well so does all the nonsence about traping being out dated and not useful. Plenty of Americans use traping as a way of life just like you city slickers that go to your office jobs. You have to be completly retarded if you honestly believe that people trap to get some sick joy out of it. It makes the rest of us wonder what you tree hugging creeps really do in your spare time. Before you start sobbing about suffering animals do some REAL research about the topic and then deside if you still want to cry about it. Stop the fighting and come up with a real solution. 50/50 people

  127. Jim says:

    Hi Chad , Its nice to hear your perspective. You have some very valid points. In fact I would like to elaborate on some of them if you don’t mind.
    First off, domestic dogs and the wilderness. Dogs by nature are predators. They love nothing more than to chase furry little animals as well as larger prey such as deer and elk. Most of those dogs will at least attempt to kill their prey if they catch it. If they can’t catch it most will chase it until they have exhausted every avenue. Some dogs are more obedient than others and will listen to the commands of their owners. For other dogs the instinct to hunt and kill is so deeply engrained that a owner doesn’t stand a chance in calling it off a running deer for example. Not the dog’s fault, its just what they are. If they are guilty of anything, it’s being their self. Go ahead and argue this I don’t really care, its not going to change the fact its true. I heard a rumor just the other day where a lab chased and killed a white-tailed deer, against the will of its owner. I have personally witnessed dogs chasing deer and there was nothing the owner could do to change the dog’s mind. In fact, some people I know had to leave their dogs overnight in the mountains because they chased deer so far they became lost. The next day they went back and found their dogs. Whether they to killed or not is unknown.
    During the season of trapping, there is another season that is taking place; this is a season when deer, elk, and other animals are in a critical winter survival mode. It runs nearly parallel with the trapping season. If there is ever a time when said animals don’t need to be ran by dogs its then. Food for thought. Am I suggesting we ban people from recreating in these places with their dogs during this time? Absolutely not. I’m not into taking people’s rights away just because I can’t stand that this happens. However, it appears most of you trapper-haters want to do just that. I can’t help but feel it’s a spit in the face. You seem to feel like your recreation somehow is more important that another man’s way of life, or recreation. As if to say “well screw them then, if they don’t want to play by our set of rules, let’s just make it illegal for them so we can have our fun, our way of life and screw theirs.” The word prejudice comes to mind. I’ve stated it before in this blog and I will say it again. I am not a trapper. I just simply do not agree with your approach on this matter. I am certain, at least for most of you, hunting is bad too. Its either that or you are so naive as to how many animals are left to “suffer” from it. You just know you can’t get your selfish way without the support of hunters. That is why you try to fool them, and make them think you are on their side. Fortunately, that’s just not going to work.
    As for the “Rich bird hunter” that is supporting your cause, I find this kind of funny, among other things. To argue that a game bird’s worst enemy (other than humans) is not the very animals trappers help control the population of, would be ridiculous. Animals such as fox, coyote, skunk, raccoon, and so on. In fact most private game ranches hire trappers to control the populations of these predators so they can have a sustained population of game birds, thus making their business prosper. Fellow hunters of Montana or anywhere don’t buy into this misrepresentation of the truth. If you trapper-haters want to play on a level playing field, I for one will work with you. If you just want to wage war on another man’s right like you have, I will battle. I do believe there is a reasonable solution that doesn’t involve anyone’s rights being abolished.

    Sincerely,
    Jim

  128. Taz Alago says:

    Vanessa -
    As has been said over and over in these comments, it’s not the killing that offends, but the way trappers go about it. Again to repeat, I don’t think trappers necessarily get “some sick joy” out of their sport, but they definitely don’t let the knowledge of the torment they cause stop them from trapping. I’ll ask you the same question I asked “Honey” above: would it be alright to put a chicken in a leg-hold trap for a day or two before killing it?

    It’s not just “city-slickers” who oppose trapping. Here’s a story from The Oregonian about a 2nd generation logger who was seriously pissed off by bear trapping in Oregon. You can read it at http://trapfreeoregon.org/page15.html or go the Oregonian site and find it in the archives, but you’ll have to pay $3 to access it.

  129. Taz Alago says:

    Vanessa -
    Except perhaps for some indigenous people in Alaska, trappers in the USA don’t trap to eat or trap to survive. A person can’t make enough money trapping to sustain himself. Most trappers I don’t believe have a taste for bobcat or coyote or mink or skunk or beaver (except maybe the tail) or whatever, so they don’t often eat what they trap, if that’s what you meant.

    For wildlife management, hunting works well. All these animals can be successfully hunted by those who learn the necessary skills. Your cat getting run over was an accident. Trappers don’t trap by accident. They intend to trap, and they don’t let the fact that they cause unnecessary and sustained torment bother them.

    As I keep repeating, I’m not arguing about killing. Practically the whole eco-system runs on killing one way or another. What I’m arguing against is killing by causing the maximum of suffering, when it’s totally unnecessary. Also as I have written before, every state in the Union has laws against animal cruelty, which trapping is, and it’s time the law applied to trapping too. Or do you think that animal cruelty should be legalized because it’s a cruel world we live in, and so no attempt should be made to make things a little less cruel?

    Also, since you probably haven’t read all the comments above, my family trapped and I did too briefly as a kid. Plus I’ve seen trapping up close where I live. I’ve read a lot of accounts of trapping incidents in the media, I’ve talked to ODFW officers, I’ve talked to trappers, I’ve collected statistics on trapping, I’ve read more than a few of the numerous studies available on trapping and predator control, so that although I’m neither a trapper nor a wildlife professional, I’m not ignorant of the subject, and I suspect that goes for a lot of the anti-trapping commentators on this page.

  130. Protect Montana says:

    What is the matter Taz, not used to dealing with someone with confidence. The only people who have something bad to say about me are you ignorant jackasses that do not even know me.
    Vanessa, Chad, and Jim have put it right and I just have nothing else to say but one thing.
    Taz, thank you for your insults.
    With every ignorant word you speak it brings me that much closer to realizing how much substance you lack. Your words are as pointless as your cause, and just about as intelligent. You can put yourself right up there with the rest of pointless fights that are deteriorating America. Way to go, pat yourself on the back!!!!

    Protect Montana

  131. orca says:

    Couple of comments…..First, I’m still waiting for someone to educate me as to any conservation and or restoration projects that trappers have been involved in. As I mentioned long ago on this forum, I’ve worked on numerous riparian, stream and wetland projects with representatives of hunting and fishing groups and have NEVER seen or even heard of a trapper participating. Yet, they’re entitled, unlike hunters or fishermen, to profit commercially. They’re always willing to take, but never to give something back. Like I said earlier, they’re parasites.

    Someone mentioned that ungulates in “winter survival mode” don’t need to be run by dogs and that to ban people from these winter ranges would be wrong. Well, I don’t know where this person lives, but I do know that in critical elk and deer wintering ranges in Montana, both humans and dogs are banned. Whoever made that statement knows very little about game management.

  132. chad says:

    I all ready proved my point on banning traps because of pets,
    and how ignorant it is now i would like one of you to prove to me
    how much pain, medical proof, a animal goes threw when in a trap.
    ever pinched your finger or arm or any part, I’ll bet you did not feel that much until the pinching was released due to the nerves being pinched of. Yes i have pinched my hand almost all the way through
    in a tilt bed trailer. I stood there for sometime before anyone herd me and released my hand. did not feel very much pain. had reconstructive surgery to repair hand and severed nerves. so other then your cruel crap you have nothing. any way what i want is some to rebuttal the fact on dogs/cats being predators and footloose does not have a case on that matter. they are what this site was created by. stop with your “cruel’ talk and answer some real question.

  133. chad says:

    orca just what exactly do you call “giving back” donating money to some one to do something with it? repairing the crick bank in a riparian zone that was damaged, what damaged it? spraying noxious weeds in riparian zones, I have done a lot of that by the way. donating to organizations like footloose? what the heck does this have to do with anything.

  134. chad says:

    guess no one has any arguments today.
    well I have another. I think I would rather have a trap
    on my foot or were ever than have a arrow shot threw me
    so i can run of and bleed to death. although I like bow hunting.
    haven’t trap for many years. has anyone ever tried teaching
    their dog what a trap is so he will know what not to do?
    maybe that is cruel not educating your pet of dangers before
    taking it some were.

  135. Ann says:

    Fact! Trapping makes animals suffer
    FACT. NO ONE and I mean NO ONE (in this state) Traps as their way of life. Or to survive. You try to tell me you do and you are full of stuff that I pitch out of the Barn everyday.
    FACT Hunters can make animals suffer.
    FACT there are A$$-holes everywhere.
    FACT IF people would take responsibility for what THEY do, and quit trying to tell other people how THEY need to act, they would be busy enough.
    FACT: if you keep better track of your animals your cat or dog wouldn’t get run over by a car OR get it’s leg caught in a trap. These jerks that take their dogs with them and just cut em loose need to have their heads examined, Letting your dog or cat terrorize the little animals of the forest, is sometimes worse than death to these little animals. Keep your dog on a leash. You know Trap lines are in the area and if you don’t check it out. Responsible pet ownership can go a LONG way.
    FACT: Trappers DO NOT check their traps every day. Oh you may try to tell people that you are very responsible and you do but YOU CAN NOT make that PROMISE.
    FACT: You set traps you expect to harm, cause suffering, and do damage to an animal and YOU KNOW IT and DON’T CARE. That is CRUEL. A domestic animal will have a human save them, a wild one has nothing but fear, of the trap and what might follow. That is TERROR.
    FACT you let your dog/cat out of the car/house, and it’s NOT on a leash then you obviously don’t give a crap about the animal. If you are there other people and their animals might or could be too.
    Just cutting your dog lose on your hike makes as much sense as taking your kid to the toy store and letting them run rampant. It’s YOUR pet YOU keep an eye on it.
    So don’t try to blame anyone but yourself, it will be a COLD day in a hot spot before they take any hunting privileges away so quit getting your undies in a wad. Bottom Line Trapping is Not a necessary way of life.
    FACT: TRAPPING IS CRUEL!!!!!!!

  136. mary says:

    Ann, thanks for these interesting facts. Another fact: People DO let their dogs run off leash and you are right, they inadverently cause damage to ground nesting birds, young ungulates (fawns, elk calves etc), or get into trouble with wildlife (mom moose, bear, etc), or other hikers with, without dogs or with children. Dog owner responsiblity is a challenge. However, there are dogs on leads, such as the working dogs I mentioned earlier, that are aggressively tracking a scent, for search and rescue, wildlife tracking, or some other purpose. IN talking with some of these folks, traps are still a real concern, and these animals are on a lead, usually 6 ft long, but sometimes longer. They could get into a trap. These people do attend the pet rescue workshops, and hopefully they could get their animal out of a large connibear. If a working dog gets even into a leghold and enough damage is done to require amputation (there are documented veterinary reports of this happening), that is a huge loss to the handler of these working animals. I bring this up as these are not “recreational” pets per se, but are working animals. The same could be said of upland game bird dogs that flush up game, or waterfowl retrieving dogs that jump into water bodies (beaver ponds, for example) that may have submerged connibears. Do the hunters then have to leash these dogs? I don’t think they can. The situation is one of public safety on public lands. Call any Forest Service or BLM office and ask about public safety on public lands–it is their mandate. These agencies build trails and trailheads for the public to use, and both agencies will tell you that they do not require animals to be on leash (I have discussed this with them). So unless they post areas as leash only (a few rec sites may have this due to heavy use within the first mile or so), these areas are viewed by the public as off leash areas. Hopefully the dogs are under voice control. We have worked very hard with our two dogs and they both turn on a dime when we call them. As a back up, we have collars that we rarely use. I don’t tolerate harrassment of wildlife by dogs either. Just some thoughts.

  137. chad says:

    I use to trap a lot of rabbits and I would keep the fur and have
    the rabbit for lunch. Yum. well any way thanks for agreeing that
    pets geting in trap is not a real argument Ann.

    I once had a doezen racoons living in my attic and tree out front
    and one day came home in middle of day and they were all running around like crazy in front of house and quickly relized these coons had rabbies. This house was inside city limits and firing a gun was not a option. If i had trapped thes darn criters before and got ride of most of them the incident mite not have happend. luckly no one was bit .

    what if what if. what if you tranied yor trained surch dogs to watch out for traps. what if your traps are in water. what clues are your dogs looking for in the water. they serch banks. a trap on a bank is detectable by a surch dog if he knows to watch out for them. No your not going to spend all your valuable surch dog time watching for traps it only takes a milasecond to pick up on and step around. as for hunting dogs jumping in the bever pond,
    You killed the duck desturbed the bever and got your dog in a bever trap. what are you thinking.

  138. chad says:

    public safty,blm, do think the blm can keep you safe of dangers
    on public land? cant take respnsability for yourself? It maybe their mandate. if they did not alow traps there would probly be more bobcats,cougers,cyotes,ect. on the trails. Ever see pictures of hikers mauled by cougers? by alowing trapping they are upholding their mandate.

  139. Taz Alago says:

    Ann and Mary seem to have summed up the situation pretty well.

    Chad, traps are hidden. Even the trained, leashed tracking dogs have to worry about traps, as Mary had said. They aren’t often in plain view; areas with traps aren’t marked. Trapping rabbits instead of hunting and shooting them is a good example of why people so dislike trapping. It’s extremely cruel and unnecessary, but I get the feeling that cruelty doesn’t bother you.

    Vanessa, I didn’t mean to imply that trappers intentionally trap dogs. I was thinking of wildlife. I meant that trappers know full well that they’ll trap other animals besides the ones they’re after. Those unintended catches suffer the usual trapping agony and are killed. Lots of animals are accidentally caught and trappers expect it. I don’t buy your argument that because it’s a cruel world, it’s necessary or admirable to add to the suffering in pursuit of what has become in this time and place a sport. Fur trapping has lost its importance as a viable economic industry, and to torment thousands of animals to death for the pleasure of a relative few is wrong.

  140. chad says:

    I was young trapping rabbits and was not allowed to take a gun
    with me by my self. and your telling me you cant teach a dog to
    pick up on a trap? why are dogs in mine fields and commonly used to find a variety of stuff.

  141. chad says:

    have you ever herd of rasing bees? lots of skunks and racoons and other animals love to attack there hives and i want to know
    if you think bee farming is important or not and would you run in their shooting and hollering to scare this animal away? do some resech on it.

  142. Ann says:

    So you have Bees Chad? Do you have a .22? Do you have a Pellet gun? do you have an .06? Plenty of quick easy ways to handle you’re supposed problem in the bee hive. Use a live trap, then remove the animal.
    Do you have a dog? Is it mine field trained? If so what did that cost you?
    Trapping is CRUEL! and inhumane.
    If you don’t believe me, I’ll take a coyote trap, I have about a dozen on the wall in the shop, and tie your hands behind your back set it off on YOUR privates, and see if you think it isn’t CRUEL. I bet you’d be begging me to just cut it off, there are quicker ways to rid yourself of a problem than by TRAPPING.

    Your reasons and excuses, wouldn’t hold a mole.
    Trapping is CRUEL!

  143. chad says:

    not the brightest one are you. teaching your dog what a trap
    is before you take him in the woods were traps are legaly/illegaly
    is just a smart thing to do. you bring your pets to the trap it does not come to them. any time you take kids to a place with dangers
    you tell them about it first don’t you? even if expensive or not
    you just put a price tag on your animals safety. yes i have a dog
    and he is not educated on traps cause i don’t take him were their
    are traps. if i did i would educate him.

    have fun with your skunk in live trap in middle of bee hives.
    you have some pretty disturbing and weird tactics of approaching this mater.

  144. Protect Montana says:

    Let me start educating you. I read a lot of people saying that foothold traps seriously wound animals. Go to Montana Trappers Association web site and check out the facts and myths. There is a long video of animals being released from foothold traps. Just watch it, and if you do not want to then just silence yourself. The miss information on this sight toward trapping needs to end.
    Ann, what exactly are you trying to prove? Your record is skipping and it is as irritating as fingers on a chalk board. “Trapping is CRUEL!, but I have about a dozen coyote traps on my shop wall!” ” I detest trapping, but I just happen to own some traps and if you like I could slap one of them on your privats!” And you say we are sadistic. Ann, what do you really hate in this world, Ann, who did you so wrong that you have to attack others in an attempt to heal your wounds. You need to take a break and a breath and then come back refreshed. What I am asking for, is that if you are going to battle trappers, or any one. Tell the truth, stick to the facts, and quit making up false information in hopes to better suit yourself. We are not stupid people, and we see through your ignorance and lies. If you are a neutral person here, I will not tell you who you should trust in. But just read back through this and you will see that both sides have at times faultered from being civil and that can be expected. But just read these comments and make note in your head on wich of us has to miss inform to attempt to gain support.

    People you need to start signing up with Protect Montana. I ask of nothing from you but your support. If you trust in Protect Montana contact me.
    protectmontana@hotmail.com
    I am happy to help in any way I can. And It does not matter what state you are from, or what state you live in now.

    Thank you

    Protect Montana

  145. Ann says:

    I don’t take my dogs out where there are traps either, YOU mentioned the mine field dogs. Obvious you haven’t done much around live wild animals. Skunks don’t like that smell any more than you would. I’ve live trapped dozens of skunks, and not ONE ever let loose.
    I really wonder just how much or IF you’ve done ANY trapping, or are you just some kid that decided to see what kind of things you could stir up on this site. (I say kid because your spelling is as lame as some of your comments)
    One of the trickiest parts of trapping is ELIMINATING any scent from the trap, and masking it with other smells. If someone’s dog could smell the darn thing what makes you think a wild animal with more astute senses couldn’t.
    Succeessful trappers, set traps that are hidden. You don’t just set them on top of the ground at the base of a tree.
    Kind of defeats your purpose for trying to trap.
    Obvious as well you have NO clue about search and rescue dogs, and the work they are capable of. For one thing they can search in water. Many have been used in drowning victim recoveries.

  146. Protect Montana says:

    Go to the top of your computer were you type in addresses. And just type ” trappers help ” this will answer the question ” What do trappers do for the wild” .

    Thank you

    Protect Montana

  147. Protect Montana says:

    Ann you are correct about my spelling skills, they do leave a little to be desired. I hope that my lack of spelling skills are not effecting to many of you too badly.

    But Ann I am just alright living with my weaknesses and my strengths. Thank you so much for your concern on this 32 year old man.

    Thank you

    Protect Montana

  148. mary says:

    Chad, you brought up an excellent point! People point out dangers to children (posionous plants, cliffs, etc…) that are APPARENT to them. Traps are hidden! How are we supposed to know where they are? And the ones I’ve encountered lately are NOT even set at the regulated distance! So, what am I supposed to do? NEVER take my dog (on leash or not) on PUBLIC lands because traps basically could be ANYWHERE on public lands, especially traps for those awful ‘Vermin” such as coyotes! That type of trapping is completely unregulated and goes on year round. Why should ONE ACTIVITY lock the rest of us, our children and our dogs out of the public lands we all pay for? Everyone wants their freedoms, but what is the total cost to society as a whole? Should I alter my behavior so much just so you can trap? Are you, PM and Jim willing to have areas posted? I wouldn’t think so. But remember, these are public lands for everyone, including all of you. But trapping as an activity puts too many other types of use at risk.

  149. Protect Montana says:

    Ann, I was just a little bit interested. When you “Live” trap these skunks, what do you do with them? Do you kill them? Or do you release them so they can be a problem for you again?

    Oh and in the possiblility that you were to refering to Chad about his spelling skills , what exactly is your point. And anyone of any age has the right to post what they want here. I know many children that could easily be your intillectual superior.
    Sorry Ann, but you are just a blind, rude person.

    Sincerely

    Protect Montana

  150. Ann says:

    PM again YOU try to MISINFORM I never said ONE word about your spelling. That was in reference to CHAD. So quit flying off the preverbial plow handle in the manure pile. Actually I got tired of “go to my Protect Montana website” and quit reading YOU. Till you attacked my ability to be honest.
    I could give a tinkers dam about your weaknesses or strengths You’ve shown you have NO regard for animals that get caught in traps whether they were intended or not. That in itself spoke VOLUMES.

  151. mary says:

    Chad, regarding your public safety comment, you are absolutely right that there are all sorts of dangers in the woods. Bears, rattlesnakes, mtn. lions. But they are not manmade dangers and that is where the public land management agencies have a concern. If a person puts a device in the woods that could cause harm, and the BLM and FS is building or maintaining trails for recreation in that area, they are concerned. But don’t believe me, call the regional office of the Forest Service, or any supervisors office, or call the BLM state office or area offices. I’m referring to the recreation/public safety issue. When, for example, a foot bridge along a trail is in need of repair and the FS see it as a safety hazard, they let the public know by posting it or closing off the bridge. They know it’s a safety hazard. In this case, since they don’t know about trapping activity on their land, it makes this very difficult. In encourage you to look into this. It seems you have a hard time believing anything that people write if they do not share your views. But honestly, I have discussed this with Forest Service recreation staff.

  152. Ann says:

    Protect Montana:
    No I’m NOT Blind but my Mother is, and Even she can see the idiocy in your trying to rationalize the suffering of animals. And not that it’s any of your business but YES I live with my Mother who is 83 Blind, and has dementia, in order to keep her home and NOT in some resthome.
    I take the Rude comment as a compliment coming from you.
    If you actually want someone to pay attention to you (especially when they have to READ what you are trying to get across) It is much easier IF that person can actually read what you are meaning, and not have to guess what word you are trying to use.

  153. Protect Montana says:

    First off I do not know what kind of trapping you were doing but I have never set traps that catch animals genitals! And one other thing, I am not pointing at you when I say tell the truth, I am pointing at all of you that lie, or talk without education. And Ann, I did not convince you that trapping was bad, you had that decided on your first post. There is one of your lies.
    You stated that animals usually either freeze to death or die of starvation in traps. That is another one of your lies, or miss information. You stated that no one in this state relies on trapping to make a living. That is a lie.
    You are alright with people using live traps, and you yourself use them. But tell me how does a live trap protect an animal from freezing and starvation. So what you are saying is that only people that use live traps can succeed in checking their traps regularly so that animals experiance minimal suffering. And I will let you know that a cage around a wild animal is just as traumatizing or more so than a trap on the leg. You are the pot calling the kettle black.

    So sincerely!

    Protect Montana

  154. Vanessa says:

    I heard over and over again, trapping is cruel. And frankly I don’t care any more. It is obvious that your view is one sided and what you really care about is being right. As I said in my last post, which by the way isn’t up here, that you can not humanize a wild animal. You all talk about their feelings and what have you, but the last time I checked animals didn’t not talk. My opinion on this entire subject is that the only reason you are sobbing about these poor, defenseless animals is the guilt that you have in your own heart. The guilt that you haven’t done enough for human kind and that’s why you fight for such a ridiculously issue. If you really cared about wild life why aren’t you going after the jerks that keep building subdivisions and mini malls. They rip apart nature just to make the big bucks! We have a duty to protect the wild life, yes we do. It is also our duty to control the population of wild life and research it. We have a duty to protect them from themselves . These are Wild Animals we are talking about. The circle of life, they live , they hunt, they die. We live, we also hunt and we also die! But that is as close as we come to being the same. I can not for the life of me understand how these haters keep suggesting these animals were like human beings. If a bear were to find an infant in the wild do you really think the bear would nurture and feed the baby as its own? No of course not, that is absolutely ridiculous. So is believing that these animals are similar to humans. I watched some videos and none of them disturbed me the way you make us all believe we should be. Majority of you paint a beautiful picture of nature and the animals in it. Then out of no where you show us tormented animals. We are sick? We don’t flaunt the gruesome part of our hunting. But for some reason you do and you are the one’s against it. When you hunt, no matter what way you do it, you don’t put feelings into it. Just as you don’t put any feelings into putting out a mouse trap. Even the so called humane ones! Most of you activist probably never been in nature and you believe what the T.V. says. The media has you rapped around their fingers. Giving you little fairy tales about a dear who lost its momma and a little penguin that found out why the fish are depleting. Get you nose out of the T.V. because it’s corrupting your mind. There are generations of hunters, trappers, and fishermen. Generations of tradition and respect for the earth and the many blessings she gives us. We were taught to be thankful and respectful, unlike the millions of you who never set foot in the back country and the millions of you who know so much about this by reading it off the internet. City Slickers that have no relation to the back country until they decide to move to the suburbs that was ironically built on top of a wooded area. Then they see all the “PRETTY FURRY ANIMALS” that come by (because they are looking for their homes you now live on) and get culture shocked because people hunt them. This is a way of life like it or not. Cruel to you who knows nothing of the circle. Cruel is the persons who think they have a right to take freedom from innocent people. Cruel is you haters who are trying to trap us and rape us from our God giving right to survive with out breaking his commandments. Who are the real TAPPERS here???

  155. Protect Montana says:

    Vanessa, I do not know who you are but I have to say that you are excellent! I love how you veiw the realities of life, and that you show regard for others. I know this all sounds mushy, but I just wanted to thank you for your straightness and common sence. If intelligents prevails, readers can’t ignore the raw truth and energy in your words.

    Thank you very much.

    Protect Montana

  156. Vanessa says:

    Ann
    Fur sombody who thanks day no evrthang and ares so pashonate bout yur hart be n broken ober krulty an here u r be n roothlis agenst sombudys spelln. So how old am i and how ares my speln fr ya.

    NOW take a deep breath have a cig and come off that pedestal of yours. Not every one here uses spell check to show off their so called intellect. And even if some do this isn’t ENGLISH 101 so get over yourself.

  157. jim says:

    My, My …. Most impressive Vanessa! Chad dont sell yourself short either . your points are excellent as well. I have to spend time with my family. I will post later. Good evening to all.

  158. chad says:

    so.speelin ant as important to me right now as geting
    points acros. mabe i spent more time in the woods than in a class.
    I am 27 years old. I have a friend who is preaty old and retierd
    and living of his ss check. He traps to supliment his income cause
    it is easy for him to do. I now another vietnam vet in same situation. they do not have internet but they do have voices
    and rights.

  159. Ann says:

    PM You are reading stuff into my posts that I did NOT say.
    1) I NEVER said you convinced me of anything OTHER THAN (now read this carefully, for I will QUOTE what I said)”You have done one thing on this site, and that is convinced me to NOT support your Protect Montana.” Now where does that say you convinced me on anything about trapping. So NOT a lie. YOU misinforming. Still I won’t go to the infamous myspace page could careless about it.
    2) You actually deny that animals DON’T freeze to death, starve or die from sheer Terror, from being trapped? What world do you live in? Have YOU ever actually caught anything in a trap? If so were you RIGHT there after it got caught and dispatched it immediately? Even IF you did how many out there that trap have, and HONESTLY now don’t slant it to make you look good. Bet NOT so More of you MISINFORMING!
    3) Where in the WORLD do you get the live trap and checking connection? Now this is your quote: “So what you are saying is that only people that use live traps can succeed in checking their traps regularly so that animals experiance minimal suffering.” WHERE did THAT come from?
    4). Yes a caged wild animal can be very traumatized, BUT nothing like being caught in something you didn’t know was there, and it has a hold on you with a grip that CRUSHES BONES, CUTS FLESH and at times amputates. and you have NO Idea how to get away from it or the PAIN.
    5). Traps HAVE caught animals in the privates, it’s not common BUT it does and has happened. whether you want to believe it or NOT I have seen an animal in a trap dead with just that caught in the trap.
    6.) You MUST be joking to think that someone can actually SURVIVE by trapping alone. Again I ask you what planet are you on? Pelts are in their prime in winter NOT spring or summer or fall but WINTER. You actually think someone can trap enough fur to survive for 9 months on less than three months trap time? GET REAL.
    Sure there may be some out there that SUPLEMENT their income by trapping but to SURVIVE on only trapping BULL SH**.
    So who is telling lies and slanting issues?

    We all used to crap our pants too, BUT isn’t it nice to have learned from that mistake?

  160. chad says:

    ann I think you might be a little crazy. you do not seem to realy now anything about anything.
    1 not cheecking out other sights on this topic says a lot.
    2 yes animals die that way in/or out of traps. every animal dies
    of something most casues of death for animals might seem cruel
    3 what?
    4 animals dont know the cage trap is there eather. A wolfs mouth
    also crushis bone. how did you vote on that?
    5 you watch to many scary movies. an animal would have to lay
    down on trap in right spot and proced to do things with the trap
    for that to actuly happen. probly has but chances are probly better of your dog eating that animal.
    6 I would love to see you stand in front of a vetern and say those words. what lies have I told here.

    some of your crazy thougts make me want to crap my pants.

  161. Taz Alago says:

    Hi PM

    I’m glad you bought up this nonsense about cage traps being as or more traumatic than leg-hold traps for the victim. Of course it does seem a no-brainer that having your foot in a steel clamp for a few days is worse than being in a cage with your foot NOT in a steel clamp, but I checked on some studies of the effects of steel leg-hold traps on coyotes, just to be sure. Now I know you’ll skip what I’m writing here, PM, but for those who actually want to know about this stuff, I’m referring to “Onderka, D.K., D.L. Skinner, and A.W. Todd. 1990. Injuries to coyotes and other species caused by four models of footholding devices. Wildlife Society Bulletin 16:303-307.” This study was conducted over two trapping seasons in Alberta, Canada predominantly in winter with subfreezing temperatures. The traps used were the Victor #3 unpadded leg-hold trap, Victor #3 Soft Catch (padded) leg-hold trap, and two kinds of leg snares. The traps were checked every day (in Montana there is NO mandatory check time).

    Of the 82 coyotes caught, 48% caught in the Victor#3 had leg fractures, as did 50% of those caught in the Novak leg snare. Partial or complete freezing of the limb occurred in 53% of the 57 coyotes trapped overnight. The damage scores, which include lacerations, abrasions, rupture of tendons, broken teeth, etc. was just about equal for both the padded and unpadded traps. FIFTY-TWO other animals were incidentally caught, including porcupine, snowshoe hare, lynx, red fox, birds, dogs, a cat, and deer. Three of 5 foxes trapped by unpadded traps had fractures, as did two of ten porcupines. All the snowshoe hares were dead with severely macerated legs. Birds were found dead with injuries to wings, legs and chests. I know you’re a really decent guy, PM, but you sure have a nasty hobby. Imagine how much worse the other trappers are, who aren’t as considerate as you.

  162. chad says:

    I looked up traping in canada. It is not illegal their. even after
    this study your talking about. Why? cause it has many uses and
    your argument is not going to hold up.

  163. Vanessa says:

    PROTECT MONTANA
    Thank you for your comment. I believe the same in you. I also believe there are a lot of ignorant people out there jumping on the bandwagon. I think you totally rock and I appreciate your intellectual insight in this matter. To CHAD AND JIM ROCK ON BOYS ROCK ON!

  164. Ann says:

    PM to answer your question about live trapped skunks and what I do with them, Give me your address, and I’ll show you.

    Just teasing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    I live in the Boondocks, and I take them farther into the woods away from my cabin and cut em loose. I’m NOT a tree hugger, I don’t own a Subaru, and I don’t agree with the CRUELTY that is caused by trapping.

    Vanessa I couldn’t care less what you think, say or type, I’ve been very fortunate to NOT have met you, and I’m counting on my luck to continue.

    Chad where did I say YOU were lying? You yourself said he SUPLEMENTS the income big difference.

    You people are the kind that think setting an animal on fire, or sticking it in a microwave and turning it on, or putting an animal in a dryer and turning it on doesn’t hurt them either, because after all they are ONLY animals.

    Have you ever tried to take quills out of your pet? If so did it look like your pet enjoyed it? or wasn’t the least bothered by it? Bet NOT. Bet they cried and bled.

    So spew your crap all you want. Trapping is Cruel to animals. The only thing trapping does anymore,(it HAD its place at one time) is make some people who do it feel big and tough because they were able to catch and kill an animal that was only trying to survive.

    What the heck are the sites you keep talking about going to tell me that I haven’t seen first hand. Animals get caught in Traps. Fact. Animals suffer while in those traps Fact. Animals die a sometimes long cold death in the trap. Fact. Not all trappers check their traps everyday. Fact Not all trappers are responsible Fact. Now what did I type as fact right there that any of you GREAT WHITE HUNTERS can prove to be a lie? NOTHING.

    I live on a homestead of my Grandfathers. So get off the I’m destroying mother nature or tearing up her ground because I’m not and don’t . I microwave plastic too. I don’t recycle either.

    NOT ONCE did I ever say that it should be outlawed.
    All I have ever said is it is CRUEL.
    BUT since reading the posts of Vanessa, and PM, (not so much Chad’s) It makes me think maybe I SHOULD jump on the ANTI-Trapping bandwagon and see what I can do to get it OUTLAWED.
    I would stand up to anyone, Chad and tell them that trapping is Cruel I don’t care who it is.
    I come from a family of veterans, my grandfather was in the Spanish American War, My Dad was a WWII veteran and taught me how traps work and some of the tricks to getting the scent off the trap. I had ancestors that were on the Trail of Death, My Brother is a Desert Storm Vet. He doesn’t trap but is an avid hunter and gun collector. My other Brother is an avid hunter and gun dealer, I USED to hunt, but because of age and physical condition, I no longer hunt. Once you squeeze the trigger the FUN is over, and the work begins.
    But I am a dam good shot with a .357.

  165. Ann says:

    One more thing about the spell check issue. If I make a phone call and they tell me to press #1 for English, I hang UP. Same thing goes to constant misspellings.
    After all Spell check isn’t like YOU have to do anything the computer does it. Real hard thing to use.
    If you go to a speech and there is someone up there with dreadlocks, stinky clothes,
    no shoes, and he’s telling you about anything, other than how to look ‘scroungy’, are you REALLY going to give him your full attention? I don’t think so, Presentation is a lot of getting your point across. Too bad if that offends anyone, it’s just another FACT.

  166. chad says:

    ann I am happy to hear you do not want to make it illegal cause that is why I am on here arguing. sorry to hear you don’t recycle.
    I would not want to talk to someone ether who’s argument was
    stronger than mine.( Vanessa’s) My great uncle John gets a set amount from the government. He traps to make some money in
    order to do a few more things like go out to eat sometime.
    or put gas in car, things like that the average American can not afford on a set income. ann no one on here should be lieing.
    no need for it if you no what you are talking about.
    yes our dog did come home with quills in noes. porcupines love to
    live in our hay stacks. the cows wood eat this hay too and also get quill’s in its mouth. so we did everything possible to keep them out. ether we could shoot them and have a dead porcupine in
    middle of stack that you cant get to or you can set a trap
    and catch him and drag him out.

    I wish you would stop saying how cruel it is than come up with some sort of sick analogy. Microwave, trapping genitals, that is making you sound kinda nuts.

  167. Ann says:

    HA HA HA I just read about how Montana Fish and Game do a wonderful job to protect our animals What a JOKE. Maybe some of them do.
    Let me tell you how our F&G take care of animals. They ticket people that have deer in the yard, when the yard is a forest and only a few miles from Yellowstone Park. They caused an animal ‘rehabilitator’ to close up for fear of getting ticketed every time a deer came through the yard. They even so much as climbed trees to look into the yard.
    You report to them of an injured animal and there first response is ‘Let Mother Nature handle it’. You call them because somebody poached, you give them the exact time of the incident, the EXACT location of the incident, and NOTHING is done. You report continual unlawful practices by an outfitter, and NOTHING happens. Illegal storing of game in Grizzly country. Leaving garbage out in a residential subdivision in Grizzly country.
    Some of the Agents dogs have been seen chasing wildlife, and killing Swift fox mother and kits, NOT a Red fox but the SWIFT. Nothing is done.
    There is an awful lot of ‘open’ country in Montana, and NOT enough GOOD Game Wardens.
    They participate in running Bison THROUGH barb wire fences, Deep Snow, onto a frozen Lake, to drown. (Thin Ice).
    Yes there are a FEW and only a FEW F&G people that Really DO care about the animals they are sworn to protect. But Most of their supervisors, don’t give a dam. All they care about is collecting a paycheck.

  168. chad says:

    I dont care fur yor sterotyping on spellers. dont think any one else cares eather. you preaty much called me a kid that cant
    speel or dress and likes to microwave animals. nice tactics.
    I bet the animals are happy to have you on their side. I do not agree with bullying or teasing as a why to make a point.FACT.
    I am not on here to offend people. simlply make points.

  169. Ann says:

    Chad sorry it makes you think I’m nuts, (you’re not too far off on that) But it is another FACT. Cats, dogs, you name it have had people do just that to them, and what’s the difference between being zapped in a microwave and being left to die in a trap?
    Again I’m only speaking from my personal experiences. Before you jump, I have NEVER done any of that to any animal(zapping, dryer, or fire). But I KNOW it happens as they are in the police reports in the paper. Halloween is usually the time most of these atrocities happen.
    I’ve done the trap lines, The ONLY time I enjoyed a trap-line run was when my husband got run up a tree while wearing his pickerel Snow-shoes, by a moose. And that was dam funny. Amazing what can be accomplished when fear sets in.
    And to be right up front and honest, There are VERY FEW humans I would care to be around the fewer the better, and thank the Creator that the situation I am in right now I DON’T have to associate with many of them. (and I’m sure they are happy they don’t have to associate with me, makes my day brighter)
    I have never had to lock my cars or doors because of an animal. I’ve NEVER had to worry about them starting a fire. Stealing anything important from me. Or borrowing money.
    Now if we were talking about trapping HUMANS I’d be all for it. So yes Chad you are right I am NUTS/Crazy. I’ve survived 53 years this way, and have no desire to change it. I don’t owe any one anything. and they sure as he11 don’t owe ME anything.
    As to Vanessa, She more than likely lives in one of those condominiums she’s talking about, She Doesn’t have a clue what I’m involved in or how I operate. Her arguments hold as much water as a fish net. She’s not worth my time or energy. She obviously thinks since animals don’t speak English, that they don’t talk. I’ll tell you what dogs, for instance, learn the human language very easily. How many Humans understand the animal language? They communicate, and very well. Just because they don’t speak our language doesn’t mean they don’t have feelings. Anyone that believes they don’t, has a hellofalot to learn.

  170. jim says:

    Ann, I read your blog about your mother being blind and having dementia. I feel for her and am glad to hear she is being well cared for. I have some personal experience with people that suffered from dementia. It is often a very difficult thing to endure for a loved one to watch someone they care so much about fall victim to this disease. I am just curious Ann, the man you were married to, the one that trapped, did he mistreat you?

  171. Ann says:

    Chad; I only called you a ‘kid’ and at 27 you still are whether you like it or not. I never said anything about how you dress. The point I was making which obviously flew right over your head. POINT being. IF you want people to pay attention to what you have to say, or write, you will have better luck if you TRY to do it correctly. I NEVER said YOU microwave animals. I asked what is the difference, between that and trapping? In the end you have a dead animal and it suffered to get that way Trap? Microwave? See the similarity? If the shoe fits again. I am NOT bullying or teasing. I only say what I believe to be true. Can you (Chad) explain how a trap vs microwave is any different? The end is the same, and the road there is the same.
    I am sure your Uncle is a respectable trapper, just from what you’ve been saying, and I admire him for that. But he is ONE out of a field of MANY that probably does it for the right reasons, and in the right manner.
    And explain how a live trap is worse than a leg hold or whatever other kind you would use to catch the porcupine in the hay stack. Less chance of killing your farm cat or dog. Easier way to catch. PLUS you can practice your marksmanship when you take it away to dispose of it.
    Bottom line Traps are cruel.

  172. Ann says:

    Jim
    NO!!!! In Fact we are still very close. But when the time comes and your family needs you, you have to make some adjustments. Sometimes those adjustments don’t work out for both parties. But I know the adjustment I had to make was the RIGHT one.

  173. Ann says:

    Just to clarify something about disposing of the porcupine, I understand people would rather kill them, that’s why I said what I did about the marksmanship. I personally would do with it the same I do with Pack Rats, & skunks. I know they might come back but if it wasn’t them it would be another one. And NO I’m not over run with any of them except maybe the Pack Rat’s and those I’ve just started naming. I haven’t seen a skunk around here in years. And there is a porcupine in my freezer. I didn’t kill it the deputy did. I have friends that do regalia for Powwows so I supply them with quills hair etc. I don’t think I’ve ever seen anything as beautiful as some of the breast plates these people produce.

  174. Vanessa says:

    Well, Anne we have one thing in common here and that is that I too feel extremely blessed to not have ever met you. I wouldn’t wish my worst enemy on your door step, to be tortured by you foolish analogies and your lack of character. I am here to make a point and to prove them. I love nature, I recycle as much as I can and I love animals. I apologize if my views on the world are too straight forward for you. It’s a waist of time to believe every thing you see and hear from the media. The world is a cesspool that breeds hate and destruction. I learned very young that there is evil in all aspects of life. There will AWAYS be some one doing something completely out of line. There will be an INDEFINITE amounts of accidents that are out of our hands. You can not control life no matter how CRUEL it becomes. I am sadden by the fact that animals get caught in traps that were not met for them, but I also realize that this is the circle of life and that is the way the Lord meant it to be. If it weren’t for tragedies we could not grow and learn from them. If it weren’t for tragedies I wouldn’t be who I am today. As much as we all wish for the world a better place, it’s not and we need to change it . Humanity suffers all over the world and they don‘t stop and think about how a beaver feels. Cry over the fact that there are babies starving to death and children are loosing their life from war. THAT is CRUELTY at its finest! Stop trying to control what should be and start helping what shouldn’t be; WAR. I, unlike you Anne, want facts not fiction. I don’t believe a word you say and think its rather amusing that when you feel defeated you go on the attack. You talk about presenting yourself to make your point heard….HUMMMMM. Need I say any more about your presentation. P.s. good luck trying to prove microwaving an animal is the same as trapping one.

  175. Ann says:

    Vanessa;
    Just as you said about animals and trapping goes with war and starving babies whether you like it or not. and to quote you: “…… but I also realize that this is the circle of life and that is the way the Lord meant it to be. ”
    Suffering is suffering no matter who how or why.

  176. jim says:

    Hello to all.
    I’ve been doing some research on the houses in the state of Washington that are being burned down. Have any of you heard about this? Very alarming to say the least. You should check it out. I just googled Washington houses burned. Here is a little of what I learned.—— Last year, 10 people, including self-proclaimed members of the ELF and members of another organization called the Animal Liberation Front, were convicted for a string of arson fires that totaled more than $40 million in damage, according to an August statement by the U.S. Justice Department.
    This gives you a flavor of what these “organizations” are capable of. As for the followers of foot loose, at least some of you have displayed views that indicate being above the law. For example, someone made a comment stating they don’t care if it is illegal if they find an animal in a trap they would let it go. It seems most of you hold a lack of respect for Montana Fish and Game and other state fish and game departments. Making comments that state and/or imply they don’t care and don’t do their job. I feel like they do an excellent job and care very much about their job and all it entails.
    The problems that are happening in our pacific northwest are a huge cause for concern. I wish the authorities well as they combat these outrageous acts. I hope everyone can realize that these horrible things that are happening there are spawned from irrational thoughts of “organizations” like these.
    Taz and anyone else that lives in the pacific northwest that is participating in this Montana movement; stop spreading your disease here, it is not welcome. As for the people of Montana that are supporting footloose Montana, Please consider what you are involved with and how the rest of Montana and the nation will view it.

    Have a beautiful day

  177. Taz Alago says:

    Well Chad -

    I guess you’ve given up defending the indefensible.

  178. Ann says:

    I for one am not a member of any type of organization.
    I have not said I was for or against trapping , I’ve only stated that it causes suffering. After reading PM’s Posts, and Vannesa’s posts, I am leaning towards the outlawing of trapping. For the mere fact, they can’t seem to admit that animals suffer. And if they are any indication of the trapping community, it should be STOPPED.
    At least Chad can admit it, and His Uncle seems to do it with respect of the animal he’s trapping. (I come to that conclusion, because of what Chad has said about the way his Uncle does it)
    Radicals are everywhere, there IS a happy medium.
    I don’t watch the media like some seem to think, I speak from what I’ve lived and seen.
    I can’t stop wars. I can’t feed the world. But I can try to stop needless suffering of the animals I share the world with.
    Humans are on their own, they can call 911.

  179. jim says:

    Ann, does he still trap or have a trapping mentality? If so how does that affect yours close relationship?

  180. Ann says:

    Jim;
    I don’t know if he still traps, I have all the traps here. That doesn’t stop him from getting more I guess. He moved to a more populated area because of his work. He’s remarried.
    It’s not like we talk all the time. But I do know if I needed his help with anything he wouldn’t hesitate.
    He’s got a new life as do I.

  181. jim says:

    I see. He sounds like most every trapper and trapper mentality people I know in the sense they wouldn’t hesitate to help their fellow man/woman. Have a nice day and remember happiness is only real if it is shared.

  182. Ann says:

    I’m not really sure what your trying to say Jim. But most of the people I know are that way and they aren’t trappers. In fact I would say Most Montanans wouldn’t hesitate to lend a hand if some one needed it. That’s ONE of the nice things about this State.
    I’ve even witnessed Federal agents and Activists help each other get unstuck. I’m not saying there wasn’t a bunch of snide remarks between laughs though.
    After all it’s MONTANA, and we are a special breed of people.

  183. jim says:

    I couldn’t agree with you more. Its great just the way it is .

  184. Ann says:

    Well I dont know maybe fewer Californians moving in would be nice. HA HA Just teasing again.

  185. jim says:

    Or at the least , if they are going to move in ,it would be nice if they could respect and accept Montana for the way it is. And not try to change it into California.

  186. Protect Montana says:

    Taz, go slither into your hole.
    Ann, I know that you are revolted by the thought of me but I just have one little quick thing to say.
    I do not hate you, I think that you sway a little to the crazy. But I do not hate you. You do at times sound like somebody that I could like, but then not so much at other times. Just relax and be who you want to be, say what you want to say. Just be nice about it. I don’t want some crazy lady busting through my door in the middle of the night to slap a trap on my no no place!

    Protect Montana

  187. jim says:

    taz , we dont want you to go away mad. Just go away like you’ve been told. Oh yeah, Don’t come back.

  188. Vanessa says:

    Taz
    In case you didn’t know people actually have lives to live and families to take care of. Don’t be so naive to think we gave up. While you all are tormenting yourself in fantasy of pain and suffering, we are gathering the facts and educating ourselves. We have only begun our quest of FREEDOM and don’t think for a second that we will give up so easily.

  189. Mathew Cauthorn says:

    hi
    I have lived in Oregon for 47 years, my Grandfather homesteaded here years ago. so our roots run deep. My Father who is now 93 years old use to run a trap line, he always told it was painful for him to club the beaver or what have you, you certainly don’t want to ruin the pelt by shooting the animal. His Family did it because they were desperate for food, they finally quit because it was so distatstful. No one is going to tell me it is a sport and have me believe it. And yes I hunt dear and elk, and I enjoy fishing
    but just stop lying there is not enough money in most places for pelt prices. you could make twice as much at K.F.C. I am not trying to be insulting but the trappers I have met which has been quite a few are really pretty ignorant hillbillies, sorry just stating the facts.

  190. Greg says:

    Great blog and thanks to PM and Jim I am going to order several traps and equipment to add to my hunting equipment and start trapping Idaho right away. Since my elk are all but wiped out over here and the deer as well, I shall spend my time in the forest seeking fur. Don’t worry PM I know what Im doing, My grandfather taught me well as a young lad, I just was to busy in the past to carry on the trapping tradition here in my Home state. I also have taken much game for the table over the years and understand the saddness of life and death and always thank my prey for surrendering themselves to me on that day of harvesting them. Grocery store shoppers will never get it, so don’t sweat the small thoughts of weaklings, I sure don’t. Now I must get back to digging those herbal roots I need for todays cups of tea.

    wolveshater. Never surrender, never submit. Truth begets hatred.

  191. Ann says:

    PM
    You don’t revolt me but what you are trying to ‘keep’ happening does. Many things go on in this world unnoticed, the suffering of an animal, child porn, child abuse, Sex offenders etc. But when it is brought to the top of the heap, and people can actually see the atrocities of the things that happen that is when it’s time to change the rules.
    I’m sure all the sex offenders would love to not have to register, and would love to be allowed to live next to a school. But thanks to something like ‘Jessica’s Law’ and making sex offenders register (not that they all do) There is a better chance out there for people to be aware and take precautions against that. (Last I knew Montana didn’t have a “Jessica’s Law” yet, there is something like it but not quite as severe as the Jessica’s Law would be.)
    I know that is kind of a stretch for some people but it’s true. There are too many out there that are NOT responsible trappers. Those are the ones I would target. But since the human race isn’t capable of being able to ‘police’ themselves, It’s either ALL or NONE. That’s when it’s time to do the NONE, and work out the details.
    Like the trappers that DON’T check traps everyday, or just leave the traps in ‘public’ areas. Those are the ones that need to be put out of business.
    So if shutting trapping down is the only way to stop the irresponsible ones, then so be it the responsible ones will have to suffer too.
    Like was said earlier it’s a cruel world and not always fair to everyone. The animals are not able to fight for their rights, so someone should. At this point in time I’m in the middle of another battle, but when that cools down, you can bet I’ll be checking into the trapping situation a lot more deeply.

    What is so hard to see that anything but a quick death causes suffering. It’s not a matter of your rights, it’s a matter of what is RIGHT.

    Being an unpaid home caregiver of my Mother, gives me the opportunity to do this. So, yes I do have a life. And a family I take care of.
    The sites that have been posted here, seem to make a very good case against allowing trapping to continue.

    IF trapping were outlawed, it would have no affect on hunting. So trying to use that as a ‘scare’ tactic to keep trapping alive and well doesn’t cut it. Most Montanans are NOT that gullible

  192. Ann says:

    The mentality of Greg’s post is exactly one of the reasons to stop trapping. He puts another score on the anti trapping side.

  193. Greg says:

    The Oregon Trail is littered with the unmarked graves of those whom couldn’t cut it. Finally western frontiersmen, mountain men and such opened up this western corner of America and those whom could not cut it showed up. Now they want too destroy our fathers traditions and our founders freedoms for their version of the New West. Funny how some research shows that Lennin and Trotsky pulled this same prank some years back, punish the forest users whom truly understand her, punish the ranchers and farmers with rule after rule. Oh my goodness those earthy folks were so evil, soon those 100 million Russian farmers, ranchers, hunters, trappers, were dis-armed and then finally slaughtered for the betterment of Russia. The mentality of those who would support Jacob Schiff, Armand Hammer, Al Gore Snr. and all these Tavistock Institute think tanks tearing the heart right out of America with Lennin and Trotskys own Green Agenda’s is another score one on your parts for supporting Marxism and the crushing of the very foundations which brought you freedom, Individuality, and free independent thought.

    Its all the Club of Rome and I quote them; ” In searching for a new enemy to unite us { all of Humanity } we came up with the idea that Pollution, the threat of global warming, water shortages, famine, environmentalism as a weapon and the like would fit the bill. In their totality and in their interactions, these phenomena constitute a common threat which as the enemy, we fall into the trap about which we have already warned, namely mistaking symptoms for causes.”

    It is simply problem reaction solution. Now if I wanted to cause trapping too be taken from those whom trap, I would set traps in high human travel areas and catch their doggies and make them mad and have them cry out for justice and the killing of another freedom. Thus the trappper whom I was wanting stopped gets to lose his priviledge, and he never knew I cheated him out of it. That is what I would do.

    But then I have studied mine enemys for many ages and understand his dirty little bag of tricks very well.

    In 1995 Idaho had 220,000 elk, In 2008 Idaho has less than 25,000 elk. Killed off by your four legged hungry trap calling himself wolf.

    Yes hunts are in danger of being closed. Hunting it self is in danger of being lost as a right to those whom choose it.

    By the way Al Gores Daughter recently married the grandson of the well known banker from New York Jacob Schiff, whom gave to Lenin and Trotsky over 20 million in American Gold to finance the Bolshevick Revolution, and get rid of all those 100 million Freedom loving Russians and their children once and for all.

    The decendants of these scum are pushing those environmentalist agendas today. Same game, different era. Score that on your score card Ann.

    I know these buggers want my guns as well, and you know it too. I must order more cages and traps now so I shall say GOOD DAY.

    Freedom Lover, wolveshater. researcher galore, never surrender never submit. truth begets hatred. Non supporter of Marxist values. Score that.

  194. Ann says:

    The Native Americans, Bison, Wolves, beaver, et.al. were all slaughtered for the ‘betterment’ of America. Doesn’t make it right.

    Al Gore and his cronies Don’t scare me one bit. His BULL SH** is just that BS.
    I could care less if Al Gores daughter married Osama bin-ladden.
    Gore is as phoney as they come. He’s right up there with Angelina Jolie and the rest of them.

    So Greg go get your traps, and set them wherever you please, might as well try to wipe those animals out too so you can whine about them disappearing, and try to blame THAT on your so called ‘greenies’.

    Like I said before, I’m not afraid to drop an animal, whether it’s someone’s pet they aren’t keeping track of and it’s harassing my livestock, of or a gopher in a field. If it were a wolf, I would just Shoot shovel and shut up.

    But I will do it quickly and with the least amount of suffering I can possibly cause.
    So you can go preach your Marxism to the animals.

  195. Taz Alago says:

    That’s amazing, Gregg. I had no idea that people against animal cruelty were Marxists. Since all the states have laws against animal abuse, there must be a gigantic Marxist element at work. You must be constantly on your guard I guess. Massachusetts, California, Colorado, Arizona, and Washington have passed anti-trapping legislation because their citizens consider it unacceptable to cause the kind of animal suffering inherent in trapping, be it for fun or profit. You yourself may actually consider California to be Marxist (despite having a Republican governor), but do you think Colorado and Arizona are?

    As to the progression from the ban of fur trapping to the ban of hunting, Arizona’s law was approved in 1994, Colorado’s and Massachusetts’s in 1996, and California’s in 1998. Those restrictions have not resulted in a ban on hunting.

    Reading the latest posts, it looks like the trapping crowd have shifted away from defending trapping itself, to attacking their opponents as communists and home-burners. They cry, “If you’re against trapping you’re against America!”

  196. Protect Montana says:

    Taz, I don’t think that you have what it takes to understand what Gregg is saying. I don’t think that you have what it takes for much of anything. Read what Gregg has written, and actually let yourself sink into it for a moment. Taz, let go of your stubborness and just let yourself feel for a moment something different than your ignorant ploy to discredit the trapper. To you a man like Gregg may seem out of sorts, and that is just because he is so much more than you could ever dream to be. At least in a thinking sence. I was actually shocked by his intillect, and had to read his comments a couple times. But I see what he is saying and I feel what he is saying.
    We shall discredit no mans thoughts, for this is America.
    We shall stomp out no mans words, for this is America.
    We shall remember the voices and the spilling blood of our fathers, and for what it was that they died for. We shall remember them by never allowing anyone to take what it was that they gave to us. Freedom.

    Thank you

    Protect Montana

  197. Ann says:

    In other words, the KKK should still be well in force, For we shouldn’t stomp out any mans thoughts?
    Dog fighting should become the next American Sport? That is a freedom?
    The type of slaughtering of Native Americans at Wounded Knee should continue for we must remember the blood shedding, and for who’s freedom?
    Those fools that protest our military funerals should be allowed? For we shouldn’t stomp out any mans thoughts or words?
    I think NOT.

  198. vanessa says:

    Anne your lack of consience and empathy gives me a headache.

  199. Ann says:

    Vanessa;

    GOOD! I’m GLAD!!!!

  200. Mary Beth says:

    These most recent comments brought a few quotes to mind:

    “The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously.”
    – Hubert Humphrey

    “Those who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves.”
    – Abraham Lincoln

    “The sound of tireless voices is the price we pay for the right to hear the music of our own opinions.”
    – Adlai Stevenson

    “The worst-tempered people I’ve ever met were people who knew they were wrong.”
    – Wilson Mizner, American playwright

    “You can’t teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time, and only annoys the pig.”
    – Unknown

    Somehow, after reading through all comments and closely following this thread, I’m more pro-trapping than I was before (it came as a bit of a shock and I still can’t quite figure it out!). I came into this admittedly not knowing much about it, but the pro-trapping crowd has for the most part, greatly impressed me with their intelligence, civility, and well-thought out arguments. And this coming from one of the most soft-hearted people you’ll ever meet when it comes to animals. I will never trap, but I support others’ rights to do so.

    Interestingly (or maybe not), I’ve lived most of my life in western Montana. I grew up out in the woods and now work in the forests as part of my career. I’ve spent thousands upon thousands of hours out there playing and working, and I’ve never even seen a trap.

  201. Michael says:

    My wife and I, and three dogs, just got back last night from a wilderness backpacking trip on Idaho’s Salmon River.

    Amazingly, we did see herds of elk, bighorn sheep, and deer. We did not, however, see Idaho’s favorite bogeyman, the wolf, nor their tracks. We did see five last spring though, swimming the river. Last summer, on a week in the Chamberlain Basin, we had wolves howling around our camp most nights. We adapted from our old ways and the dogs sleep in the tent with us now. Hardly a problem to surmount.

    Interestingly, we only take a handgun for protection, and as you can imagine, we’ve never needed it. I did read in a paper in Grangeville last summer, that some Idaho hunters are so fearful of wolves, that they aren’t going in the woods to elk hunt. It made me think, what is that steel-tubed thing they are carrying?

    I’ve also noticed that some people on this site seem to think that hanging out on a ranch makes them an outdoorsman. I’ve got relatives who run cattle near Leadore, and they haven’t a clue about the wilderness or surviving in it. Although I don’t live in a city, some of the greatest wilderness explorers I’ve known came from urban areas. Sometimes, we don’t know our own limitations. Driving a big pickup with a cowboy hat, and a rifle in the rack, does not necessarily make an outdoorsman.

    While I was gone, this forum has degenerated into a massive name-calling session and is spinning off onto bizarre tangents and conspiracy theories. To me, there are two simple, basic arguments here. One side approves of the killing of furbearing animals through use of steel traps and snares, and the other does not. One side is bothered by this method of killing, and the other is not. Although trapping is currently legal in Montana and Idaho, society in general will decide if it will stay so, not our little group of debaters on this site.

    None of the arguments placed by the pro-trappers have swayed me, and I’m sure the anti-trapping side has not won any converts either. While I was on my trip the past three days, I found where a snare had been on the river trail (the wire that suspended the snare was still there), and we saw where the animal snared chewed up brush within reach in it’s attempt to escape. To us, it was grotesque, and put a damper on our day. Yes, nature is cruel, and the world in general, but this steel cable wasn’t necessary to add to that cruelty.

  202. Michael says:

    Mary Beth,

    Civility??? From the pro-trappers??

    I must have missed something, but I must admit it’s been pretty nasty from both sides.

  203. Taz Alago says:

    Back to the subject of trapping, here’s some info on the effect of a variety of leg- and body-hold traps used to catch and release wolves in Minnesota and Alaska. Even though these were catch & release operations, the injuries sustained by the wolves were often severe. Traps used were nos. 3 & 4 double longsprings and #14′s with teeth and offset jaws, together with leg snares and even neck snares. I’m referring to “Van Ballenberge, V. 1984. Injuries to wolves sustained during live-capture. Journal of Wildlife Management 48:1425-1429.”

    A total of 106 wolves were trapped, 93 in steel traps, 12 in leg snares, one in a neck snare. 41% suffered wounds including lacerations longer than an inch with visible damage to underlying tissue, bone breakage, severed tendons, and joint dislocations. 46% received gum, lip and tooth injuries from attacking the traps. The researchers noted, “Steel traps, as used in this study, produced a high rate of severe injuries, EVEN WHEN CHECKED DAILY.” They went on to say that the broken teeth, missing feet, severed tendons, or poorly healed bones were likely to be serious handicaps for predators [or for any other animal, for that matter]. They did not mention the effect on their lives of permanent or long-lasting pain caused by these injuries.

  204. Ann says:

    Bottom line as far as I’m concerned is, Like has been said many times, It is a cruel world, but adding to the cruelty by causing an animal great suffering is not necessary. No way around it Traps cause great suffering. It’s not about some humans rights so much as it is about knowing that you are causing something to suffer and doing it willingly.

  205. Protect Montana says:

    Mary Beth, Thank you so much! You don’t know what that means coming from you. These people may be rude to you now, but remember that is just the actions of the careless. You are a soft and kind person and I appreciate you no matter what side you do take.

    A Huge Thank You

    Protect Montana

  206. Ann says:

    PM
    I in no way would look at you as an animal. I have more respect for them than that.

    And because of your smugness you have convinced me now to see what I can do in accomplishing the outlawing of trapping.

    It causes suffering that doesn’t need to be.

  207. Michael says:

    There are some freedoms and “rights” worth fighting for, such as the Second and First Amendments. But, because trapping is currently allowed in Montana does not mean it should be continued. In states where trapping has been prohibited, erosions of hunting and fishing rights have not occurred. I, as an individual, do not believe that anyone has a “right” to perpetuate an activity, that most people, if they witnessed it, would be thought unnecessarily inhumane. Management of wildlife can be adjusted and will be changed depending on the judgments of the time, sometimes right, and sometimes wrong. There is no “right” to trap animals simply because one has always done it and is not bothered by the cruel nature of it. No one has a “right” to the wildlife of any state. Times change and people change, just like we no longer allow slaves and that women now have the right to vote.

  208. Jim says:

    I can promise you Montana will not make trapping illegal. And you will soon see why.
    Mary Beth, I love you. The cool thing is there are by far more montanans Like you than not . The state is full of them. Wonderfully people. A lot of them just don’t know about this yet. But don’t worry, efforts are being made to spread the word. Please help spread it any way you can. They deserve to know and have their say before this issue slips through the cracks and gets passed. This isn’t about trapping . This is about a way of life that is in jeopardy.
    Special thanks to Greg and all on board. As for the wolfs Greg, you can rest assured I among many others I know are already on board.Introducing them was the biggest mistake for so many reasons. The people that don’t know why will only realize it when it is to late. Much like what is going on in Montana. So for those of you that do know why, right now is the time to take the time and represent your wellbeing and way of life.

  209. jim says:

    Freedom of speech is the 1st amendment. As for some, what spews out of theirs mouths leaves nothing to be desired. So I guess we should make that illegal to?

  210. Ann says:

    Yay Michael;

    Very well put. It won’t take much to spread the word of the trapping atrocities especially since the Mike Vick Dog fighting scandal. It’s only a matter of time. A lot of people in this world are starting to wake up. And since some states have already outlawed it, it won’t be as hard to accomplish. It may not be just Montana either. The whole country may follow suit.
    They will NEVER outlaw hunting, but trapping should be.
    Thank You PM, Vannesa, and Greg for helping me make the decision to help in getting this type of abuse eradicated.
    Again it is not about a person’s rights, it is about doing what is right.
    In case anyone is interested, even if they aren’t, I do have e-mail addresses for all the Govt. officials. You might say I have them on ‘speed-dial’

  211. Greg says:

    Jim

    Research H.R. 1955….Then it became S.R. 1959….the thought crimes bill, crushing the first Amendment finally. So they already have made my comments illegal. I do not know when they intend to enforce it.

    I find time between hunts and trap purchases too read Congressional Globes, Annalls and Records of Congress.

    It is called Vigilance.

  212. jim says:

    It won’t take much to spread the word of animal rights activists atrocities especially since the burning of houses and such in Washington State.

  213. Ann says:

    I would almost bet that there aren’t enough trappers in this state to counteract the ability to be able to stop it. It isn’t a matter of life and death to humans if they did outlaw it.
    I know I never run across a trap line, and many of these posters have said the same. Which tells me there aren’t very many people trapping to begin with.
    That will make it even EASIER to get it banned.

  214. jim says:

    I will do that,must go for now. Have a nice day

  215. Greg says:

    Ann

    While you are at it can you ask them too tear down all those power lines along the roads in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. Ive counted hundreds of dead by electrocution Golden Eagles laying beneath those lines from their wings touching the lines. Now that is a sad state of affairs and I just cant take it anymore. It would be cool if we could have the choice too not pay taxes on April 15th as well, since I am a War protester and really hate the thought of my tax dollars buying bullets and bombs to kill, old men, women, and children, all so I can burn some Iraqi juice in my beater hunting rig. Thus I promise too check on my traps from horse back this season. Im so glad someone else has these mis-leaders on speed dial, we need to call them to account more often.

    I think I hear UPS knocking, might be some traps, yippee.

  216. Ann says:

    Those IDIOTS that did that in WA need to be burned at the stake. Wasn’t that ELF or some stupid group like that.

  217. Greg says:

    Folks would be surprised how many trappers work for federal and state governments. So you might want to get the government too ban itself along with my right to trap as well. FWS employees several trappers and hunters. I just watched a you-tube video of a Grizzly bear transfer gone wrong and the three stooges whom were FWS employees shot and killed the bear. you can see the pics at http://www.wolfcrossing.org/

    I got a deal for you Ann, Bann all forest use entirely, then we can all be happy.

  218. chad says:

    We ran our cattle on open range in the Hat creek area between
    salmon and challis. we spent all summer up in the mountains because we were required to to keep cows out of riparian areas.that is were the cows wanted to be.we stayed in our camper 5 days out of the week. not only were we watching the cows we also payed very close attention to all other animals in mountains for various reasons. You now were they are you probably know were the wolfs and other predators are. we also looked very closely for noxious weeds and poisonous weeds. we than sprayed them. many many hours and days running around mountains for these reasons. you see if you are running 1000+ cows you are going to know nature. michael , those are some pretty strong words on ranchers. I have help build many miles of trail on continental divided above leadore nice place. If none of these classify as outdoors man than I guess I am not.
    but I sure do know a lot about nature.

    how do most of these animals die in the wilderness? most are eaten. some die of sickness and very few die of age. am I wrong to say these causes of death are also “cruel” , being eaten alive?
    dying because of a trap is just another cause of death and is in no way any more cruel than the way most animals will die.

    suffering that doesn’t need to be? animal can suffer and feed a wolf or coyote or me. Won’t feed me? I’m not going to eat it?
    when I sale the pelt and buy some food it will feed me. animals and humans suffer no matter what. the only thing that would change by outlawing trapping is I’ll have one less right and people like my uncle will have that much less money to survive on.
    I think doing that to people like my uncle is cruel. animals will still suffer and now ( if trapping is outlawed ) some people will suffer also.

  219. chad says:

    PS. I am not currently a trapper and a lot of non trapping Montana residents still share my opinions. as for not enough trappers to fight back.

  220. jim says:

    well said chad

  221. Ann says:

    Time will tell, and if some of you are so sure there are enough to keep it alive and well, what are you worried about?
    I had no clue there was even a chance that trapping would be banned, until I read this article and posts.
    But like I said, I do now and thanks to some of the posters I’ve chosen my side on this debate.
    I have patience.

  222. chad says:

    ann I am worried not about this law as much as the mind frame of the people trying to pass laws in my country.

    The kid with kids.

  223. Ann says:

    Chad
    I hear you on that one, and I do agree with that.
    But I just can’t quite condone people that knowingly cause suffering to animals.
    It’s NOT the death that is involved as much as the road there that I don’t like.

  224. chad says:

    what ever happend to equall rights? You have the right not to
    and I have the right to.I heard the statment you have the right not to have to see trapped animals, thats right you do, dont go see them.

  225. chad says:

    hey ann might want to take a look at your 3rd line agine.

    good night all.

  226. jim says:

    Greg ,I’m most impressed. I would like to meet you someday. I feel like I already know you. We must be blood brothers. Thank you for your support. I’ll see you in the woods.

  227. jim says:

    Greg, I did research hr 1955 and sr 1959. I does appear our rights in this country are dropping like flies. It would be nice to see the buck stop here.

  228. Protect Montana says:

    Many times in the past this has happened. A law is passed and we don’t even know it, many times it is not even up to the people to say yeh or ney. We have lost power within our own country and that is our own fault. We need to be loud, and we need to make sure that we never shut up. It is time to take America back for the blue collar man, it is time for him to reighn supream again. Blue collar workers make up a majority of the population, but it is the blue collar man that everybody else rests on. Without him the rest are nothing, and that is what the blue collar man needs to realize. The greatest power in this country is numbers, for you cannot ignore the working class when the working class has had enough. They can try to pull the wool over my eyes, and they can try to sew my lips. But no matter how they try they cannot stop the screaming that is comeing from deep within the working class.
    And now I do not understand the people who live amongst us, they stand so very smug and willfully hand over our rights. They do it straight in front of us, and we just look on in disbelief. These people are traitors to their children, they are destroying what they could have had. The brain washing has run so deep that they actually think that they are doing the right thing. They say it is evolution, they say that it is just the time. But I say it is ignorance. Line all us little sheep up on the hill and let the blade come down and smite us for our stupidity. For that is what we ask for, that is what we need. We do not need our rights, we just need to fill the masters plate and be good little sheep. Well sorry, I am not a sheep!!!

    My mother and father gave me a mind, and my forefathers gave me rights. My mother and father gave me a mouth and a set of lungs to go, and I will scream till I am heard or the boot of opression kicks my teeth out and packs my bloody mouth with the pages of the Constitution.

    Vote!

    Protect Montana

  229. Protect Montana says:

    Just in case some have trouble understanding what I have said.
    PM does not support anyone against the United States of America.
    PM does not support any anti-government people.
    PM does not support any violent acts toward anyone.
    PM does not support any one who wishes to harm, or alter the Constitution of the United States of America.
    Just remember, you get the government that you diserve. If you do not vote you should not complain.
    PM encourages those in America to exorcise their rights constantly. If you do these ignorant sheep like the followers of Footloose Montana will have no power.
    That makes me ill that they use the name Montana in their name. Just seems so wronge.

    Just clearing it up.

    Protect Montana

  230. Mary Beth says:

    Rock on, Protect Montana, Jim, Greg, others, rock on!

  231. Mary Beth says:

    Greg,

    Thanks a bunch for the book tips. My husband is very into survival and tracking, as am I. He is from Ireland, so we’ve been looking for some good books more oriented to the local wildlife and geography/habitat. In fact, I think we’ve looked at some Tom Brown Jr. titles as my husband had heard of him.

  232. Vanessa says:

    I am of Native American decent. I have been taught from generations before that Mother Earth generously gives us the means of survival. For these blessings we graciously give back what we can and thank her in return. We do not forget this, though times have changed. Even with technological advances, these teachings are imprinted in every single one of us. For all that believe this to be untrue you are denying and rejecting your very existence. We are here today because of our ancestors ability to hunt in many different ways; to live and pro-create. If it weren’t for them hunting, fishing and trapping we would not be here at all. You can deny this fact as long and as hard as you please, but the truth remains. You proclaim that trapping is cruel and out dated; that we humans do not rely on these animals for survival any longer. Yet all of you have known some one or some person that has used trapping as a means of living.
    You stand there with your fist in the air exclaiming “ We have evolved and no longer hunt like savages!” Presenting yourselves as noble , heroic patriots for the unprotected species. Your intentions so pure and authority so high. “THE GREAT AMERICAN ACTIVIST! WE PROTECT THE DEFENCLESS CREATURES FROM THE WRATH OF MAN KIND!” That’s right, YOU set your poison out for the so called “civilized” to see. You corrupt their minds so they can blindly walk into your trap. You hide the truth that runs through our veins in order to keep the sickness alive. You make them believe that technology has changed the way of life and we can no longer survive with out it. One by one you plant your fears and little by little you steal our freedom. Your antics are cruel and hateful; your disregard for humanity is distasteful. You play the card that has society believing that our way of life is immoral and fail to acknowledge that many still use traps as a survival tool. You imply that trappers are savages that live in a lower class than most and are useless to society. The disrespect you display for others and their way of living is repulsive. It is people like you that play a big part in the destruction of humanity. You spend no time on human rights and humanitarian efforts. Instead you waist time on a concept that is nearly foolish! When this planet becomes chaotic, when so many rules and regulations are so tight that you are limited to almost nothing, how will you justify your actions? When rights and freedom is only in history books how will you justify your actions? When one small right gets taken away, another bigger one is taken soon after!
    You make us believe that cause is a great one. That you are so caring and selfless. If you were so honorable why haven’t you consider the given facts about you own kind? Please understand that I have a heart and I can sympathize with those who are not use to or choose to block out, the realities of life and nature. I do not deny the fact that there are some trappers out there that abuse rights that Mother Nature has provided (the ones who do not give a damn about anything but themselves). There has and always will be some person doing something unjustifiable. But I strongly disagree on punishing every one for the wrong doing of another person. I would not expect to be sent to jail for my neighbors crime.
    The intention for our country was to have freedom, yet this society of higher class decided to make it their freedom. Their freedom to control the land and the ones who preside on it. I have a problem with that and so should you!

  233. Michael says:

    Greg,

    Could you point me to where you found the information (posted on 3-10-08) that “in 2008 Idaho has less than 25,000 elk.”

    I wasn’t able to find information beyond 2005, but in that year, the Idaho Fish and Game reported that hunters killed 21000 elk, which included 11,000 bulls.

  234. Michael says:

    Chad,

    My comment about ranchers meant simply this: being a rancher doesn’t necessarily make one an outdoorsman, and being a “city-slicker” or urbanite doesn’t necessarily make one a dude.

    There are obviously ranchers that are outdoors knowledgeable.

  235. Ann says:

    Well then PM I guess you don’t support Greg, since he admitted and I quote;
    “It would be cool if we could have the choice too not pay taxes on April 15th as well, since I am a War protester and really hate the thought of my tax dollars buying bullets and bombs to kill, old men, women, and children, all so I can burn some Iraqi juice in my beater hunting rig.”
    I would think a WAR Protester fits in there among “PM does not support any anti-government people.” Last I knew War was initiated by our GOVERNMENT.
    I have nothing to do with footloose.
    I have a problem with intentionally causing animals to suffer.
    Mother Nature has her way of population reduction, and that is natural.
    Birds fly into high power lines, it happens. Around here they have put platforms up for Osprey to nest so they DON’T get electrocuted, and the Osprey use them.
    Power lines were NOT put up there for the sole purpose of killing birds.
    So you guys can continue your trying to rationalize the INTENTIONAL suffering of an animal, on your own.
    I too am of Native American Decent and am in a battle right now with the senseless slaughtering of our AMERICAN ICON the Bison. AND NO I am NOT a member of the BFC so forget that crap.
    I am a person sick and tired of HUMANS killing in the name of disease when there is absolutely NO risk of it happening. I could really go on but I won’t about the Bison.
    I am a person that thinks INTENTIONALLY causing suffering to any animal is WRONG .
    Yes, I have been very up close and personal in the trapping industry, and I feel it isn’t necessary to use those kinds of traps. No one will convince me otherwise.
    IF you can prove to me that Traps could kill instantly then I would be on your side, but since they don’t I’m NOT.
    Dog Fighting, Bull fighting, Cock fighting, Stallion fighting, trapping, ALL made money for those doing it. And probably all of those except trapping, actually WAS someone’s only income. Most all of those could have been considered a ‘right’ by the people involved.
    But outlawing those (not trapping yet) was the ONLY HUMANE thing to do. Yes it still goes on but finally there are repercussions for doing it, at least in the USA.

    Chad; I’m not sure what you mean by my third line, depends on where you start counting. But I’ve said all along I’m not past killing animals myself. BUT I don’t intentionally cause them to suffer. I dispatch them as quickly as I possibly can, and it never has taken me more than the second shot. They for SURE have never been suffering for days.

  236. Ann says:

    Greg;
    Not that you care what I have to say, BUT I have closed the holes in coyote hides the size of a football, and when we took it to sell, They never found the hole. We got TOP dollar for that pelt. That was back in the 80′s though. My ex, used an AR the entrance was small but the exit was HUGE.
    It wasn’t the only pelt I patched, but that was the BIGGEST.
    None of my patches were found by the buyer. I can’t remember how much we got, but it was TOP dollar.

  237. Greg says:

    Michael

    It is an independent study done by myself and many other hunters and outdoorsmen. The Idaho sportsmans association just flew the Clear Water Drainage , you can see the flight here;
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jeD45eM_DN0

    Also if you go here http://www.wolfcrossing.org/ you will find an article about Lucky peak Resort, and the wolf impact at that location.

    I only work part time so I have time to do a lot of things, like I have traveled the Boise River Road from Atlanta too Lucky Peak four times this winter, I should be seeing 10,000 elk in that drainage, Im not. Ive done this drive for thirty years, to see the animals and collect antlers. Ive seen about 70 Cow Elk in there.

    I have snow shoed and used machine too travel the South Fork of the Boise as well, doing the same thing, seeing elk and looking for sheds. Saw 50+ elk where I used to see 8500 to 12,000.

    South Fork Payette River Drainage, Where I grew up and still search for game and shed antlers. Between Canyon Creek and the Middle Fork of the Payette it is 65 miles of river drainage. I should be finding 8000 elk along there. Ive found about 155 Elk.

    Keep in mind Idaho has lots of snow. Our IFG Department claims idaho has 175,000 elk. Well we can not seem find about 150,000 of them. The 2005 counts you show could be accurate, but i seriously doubt it. I have taken 23 bulls in thirty years, and 24 Bucks also. Most of my crew are having zero success, and others we know also zero success.

    Think about this, If you had a business to run and you needed to sell elk tags In Idaho to sustain your costs and overhead to keep your business functioning would you tell 75,000 potential purchasers of those Elk tags there are only 25,000 or less elk, or would you lie and say there are 175,000 elk. The tags are $30.00

    Now I share something with you folks, I raised a wolf in the 70s, or I should say we raised each other, best darn dog I ever knew and loved. I also watched two seperate Native wolf packs in Idaho from 1972 up till 1998. Those non-native transplants killed them out.

    My nick-name of wolveshater was given too me by those advocates at the meetings at FWS whom when finally frustrated with my evidence and pics and logic resorted to name calling and cat calls and such. Now you know.

    I hunt game, antlers and tracks, I seek out truth and punish those whom spread lies with that truth. Im a hunter, truthseeker and researcher galore.

    Ann, that is why I use the 22 pistol up close. I have touched sleeping elk and deer, and raised a badger whom I caught one day as I hiked. He used to live under my front porch. His name was Gus, My wolf was called Wolf.

    Most of those trapping horror stories are things of the past and even streched a bit. my ways are humane and so are my friends ways humane. If I see some one doing it wrong I teach them the right way to do it. After all State education is not the best now is it.

    We even take time too fix the broken ones we find, My wife is a DVM of 16 years. Right now Flower is sleeping under my porch, the local friendly Skunk.

    Peace Friends.

  238. Mary Beth says:

    Protesting war is not inherently “anti-government.” It’s merely expressing one’s views and beliefs, as has been afforded to us by the government. The freedom to do exactly that is one of the reasons our country is so great.

  239. Vanessa says:

    Michael
    Humanities best friend! You speaks as if you are one with nature, yet all you show is the fact that you don’t give a damn about anything except you wealthy right to walk in the mountains when you please. While you’re out on one of you fascinating adventures passing time away, we working class are grinding our fingers to the bone. You are part of this SOCIAL MONARCHY that believes the common folk be stripped of their right to be so the GREATER KIND will evolve and we wither away into dust. You say that ranchers, farmers and those that live and work on one know nothing about the outdoors; that you know more people in the city that have more knowledge on the subject than they do. That just shows us your lack of common sense. You’re not here to support anything except the fact you despise lower class, hard working Americans and the way we live our lives. And to disrespect your very own family just says a whole lot! Living and working on a ranch is outdoors. You are going to tell me that a rancher and his grandson working 5-6 days out of the week tracking their cattle up in the mountains isn’t considered knowing anything about the outdoors. Do you have ANY clue how much work and what kind of dangers and liability they have up there? Just because you and your buddies know how to read, work a DVD player and watch cable does not in any way shape or form make you an expert on the matter. Your kind can make believe what you will about how the “GREAT OUTDOORS” should be, but the reality is what it is. If you want a forest that you can walk, hike, bike or do what your little fantasy holds, spend your free time looking for a good loan to buy your own chunk of land to do what you please with it.

  240. Protect Montana says:

    I think that we have all learned an important thing with this little battle. An organization like Footloose Montana has awakened the sleeping giant. The backbone of American society has been silent for so long and there is now a little spark of life comeing back. It is time to join togather the hoard of the forgotten, the working man. Lets turn this spark into an infurno, lets break away from the hands that hold us down. If we all scream at once, their smallness will be drowned out. They are nothing but a spot within the masses of us. We will show them how feeble they truely are and that there mindless thoughts of opression are welcome no more.

    Take the full stand.

    Protect Montana
    protectmontana@hotmail.com

  241. Vanessa says:

    Hallelujah, and AMEN PM!

  242. Vanessa says:

    TOGETHER WE STAND AND TOGETHER THEY SHALL FALL! You, PM, are outstanding! I have a great set of lungs and they’re just waiting to be used!

  243. Greg says:

    Michael

    I should have mentioned in my last reply that the federal government pays the Idaho State Fish and Game agency more federal funds if they sell more game tags than Wyoming or Montana. Another good reason too lie about true game numbers concerning Elk And Deer, possibly including bears.This may well include trapping licenses also. It is all about the numbers. Perhaps the people are not the real problem in these states as much as the governments appear to be.

    Im pro government. But I want an Honest government, which is not hi-jacked by corporate greed and criminals plushing out their feather beds. I want a governmment for and by the people, we do not have that, any fool can or should be able to recognize that. The 14th Amendment to those whom understand english is all the proof you need. This amendment was a very dirty trick indeed. This Amendment took the rights of the individual states away from them and gave the federal government authority and jurisdiction over each individual state and person. There in lies the problems.

    I can prove it hands down, but not here. there simply is not enough room to do it here. Study on that Amendment and you shall see what I mean. It did not free black men, it made all of us Slaves under a de-facto dictator, and it happened in 1868.

    Suggest you read the Red Amendment, you can get one here 1-208-255-2307. Ask Don or Ingrid for this book. It is an inlaw expose on the 14th Amendment, a must read for the American wondering where we lost control of this nation at in History, well here is your answer.

  244. orca says:

    WOW!!!!! Hopefully someone from an anti-trapping organization such as “footloosemontana”, “trapfreeoregon”, or the others that are starting up are keeping a record of this dialogue. Just get it published nationally or locally and banning traps is a slam-dunk.
    Taz… thanks for initiating this exchange

  245. Ann says:

    This will be my last waste of time on here. First I will say,
    Greg you have (not that you care) improved my opinion of you.
    Vanessa You and your lungs can blow to your hearts content, it’s obvious you do it alot.
    Mary Beth you can continue to suck up.
    PM you can continue accusing people of doing the VERY thing you yourself are guilty of, putting words in other peoples posts.
    And Chad I wish you and your Uncle the very best in the future.
    Like I said before, I have a more important battle right now, and YES it is for saving an AMERICAN ICON of the travesties of our corrupt Gvt. Not all Gvt is but the Department of Livestock is sure trying to screw the Cattleman at the expense of the Bison.
    good day!

  246. Greg says:

    And she blew herself out of our wasted lives forever. Cheap shot artists never seem to have any sense of humor these days. Obviously a control freak whom shall never get it at all.

    As Groucho Marx once said; ” Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it and then misapplying the wrong remedies.”

    Ann is right I care not of her opinion she has of me, an electronic voice on a blog board which she attempts too make appear evil. In fact what ever Ann says about me is none of my business and I could care less about it. Walls in peoples minds which hold them prisoner are a waste of time all together and I agree with Ann finally her diabolical kindergarden crap was a waste of time for us all.

    Alas, I shall barby up some Bison this very night and put it beside a Yukon Gold tater, with some raw brocoli and salad. Oh my God people I killed a Buffalo in South Dakota some months back, and it is great chewin.

    I got a buck says Ann cant leave and will post another snide remark. Ahh Ive baited the poor little frustrated Vixen and set my trap………..

  247. Protect Montana says:

    Orca, what are you actually talking about. The face of anti trappers has been so badly beat on this post that there is no contest. We are the only ones that have found the means to answere questions and come back at your lies with facts. We have done it at every turn. And I would not thank Taz, for he is what sparked the end of you and all of your extreamists groups. I will make sure that the mass of Americans that have always remained silent feel safe, and comfortable to speak up against the likes of Footloose Montana. I will make your presents known so that you can not slip in the back door and be gone with our rights before we know it. In fact I had much the same idea as you Orca except if PM gets it published we will not take bits and peices of it like your freind Taz did in his little dialoge. That is the difference between PM and Taz, That is the difference between PM and Footloose Montana also. PM strives to always tell the truth, and will not lie about our enemies to further our cause.
    Be honest and eventually the world will hear you, and that is what has happened here. Once again Orca, bring it on and bring it hard. And still your falsness will serve us. The American people are sick of lies, be it for what ever purpose.

    Awaiting your next ignorant attack.

    Protect Montana

  248. jim says:

    This is good stuff! If for nothing else its a good laugh at times . As for Greg’s comments about the wolfs and elk problems in Idaho ,I can assure you all it is a reality. I know the country he spoke of well. I have watched the elk in the area I hunt, diminish at a rapid rate over the last 5 years. I have watched the population of the wolf Increase at a alarming rate . My hunting camp has been harassed by them. They tried to kill our horses and kept the camp up most of the night unwilling to leave . Concerned by humans not. They are not the wolf we once had. They are a much larger Canadian bread. Just like the moose they have are a bigger kind than Idaho have. They have no place here. They have destroyed our elk herds. And by the time it is addressed it will be to late. Elk tag sells will have to fall in order to keep the elk from going extincted in Idaho. I can assure you Idaho would not have let this happen if it wasn’t for the 14th amendment. The decision was out of their hands . But they now have been handed the repercussions to deal with the best they can without breaking federal law.

  249. Greg says:

    One basic truth can be used as a foundation for a mountain of lies, and if we dig down deep enough in the mountain of lies, and bring out that truth, to set it on top of the mountain of lies, the entire mountain of lies will crumble under the weight of that one truth, and there is nothing more devastating to a structure of lies than the revelation of the truth upon which the structure of lies was built, because the shock waves of the revelation of the truth reverberate, and continue to reverberate throughout the Earth for generations to follow, awakening even those people who had no desire to be awakened to the truth.

    Truth Begets name calling, truth begets hatred, truth begets denial. The meek earth people shall inherit this earth, while the modern indoctrinated dumbed down shall perish. Environmentalists have done more damage too this planet and its eco systems than any other group in world History. Their wild dog has all but destroyed in 12 years herds of elk and deer managed by outdoorsmen and hunters for over 100 years with utmost care, but that is not enough is it, now they would protect every predator and ignore all other species in our forests excepting me. They would take away my freedom for their false version of a better world. City people moving into the rural area’s of the north west and turning into what they moved away from.

    Read the Bill of Rights, then read the Communist Manifesto and those rights listed in it, or rules, and then deny that you are Marxists. Taz you make me laugh out loud. I studied Communism in your Colleges Taz for years, I give talks on it. I know what we are in America, you silly boy do not. You no doubt could not even name the father of Communism could you Taz, Think hard on it boy, because if you come out to play with me I shall crush you with truth. Your lies and denial sickens me.

  250. jim says:

    Simply put, if the seeking of trust was a war,in a war I/we will crush you.

  251. Taz Alago says:

    You guys are a treat. You’ve turned the torture of animals into a chest-beating Affirmation of Patriotism. The Great Giant of Animal Abuse you are, all five of you. You’ve turned the torment of trapped wildlife into the Glory Of The Nation. You first insist the traps cause no pain, but even if they did, you say so what, animals aren’t worth considering. As a test of your grit, why don’t you stick your paw in a leg-hold trap and leave it there for a couple of winter days, by yourself out in the bush, all a-tremble for fear of the wolves.

    “Foothold” Schutz called a spade a spade, but you say first you don’t hurt your victims, then you say, well yes I do but I get on my knees beside the carcass and thank the poor wretch for his life. Then Chad I think it was, actually asked if there was any proof that animals felt pain in the traps. He could have asked “Foothold” Schutz the answer to that one.

    Through the posts above, all you’ve offered in defense of trapping is your desire to do it. You either deny the torment it causes or try to justify it as a tradition (practiced by a tiny part of Montana’s population), or you say the cruelty simply isn’t important. You’re no different than Michael Vick and his bunch in your gratuitous brutality to animals, unless of course it’s one you’ve “adopted” like Gregg, kind of like a favored slave in the Old South. That is, if Gregg’s actually telling the truth.

  252. jim says:

    Tazzy boy,I said stop spreading your disease man. We don’t want it here. Time to go back to your hole again.

  253. chad says:

    Does any one else understand why the poor get poorer and the
    middle class is now the lower class? You pass one law that effects one group and they end up with lower earning abilities ,
    you do this over and over and it finely effects every one except for the upper class, because if they can’t do something hear they can go some were else. it is a vicious growing problem in the US.
    sure trapping and outlawing it might sooth your heart but it
    will take someones business away, some ones earnings, it will take away a source of income for the Montana fwp which will probably make other license fees increase. therefore costing people who hunt and fish more money. trapper looses money hunter looses money fisher looses money, might not be much money for some but keep adding the laws and taking away small businesses and the poor will get poorer.

    we also have seen a very dramatic decline in animal populations
    in the hatcreek area due to wolf populations. same area first wolf was killed after reintroduction. that summer we lost 28 caves.confirmed wolf kills. we reported them all. f&G;confirmed. by the end of summer and cows came home we were missing 59 caves. the 31 unconfirmed kills were never found.

  254. jim says:

    The fact is soon the voice of Montana will be heard. and you will see they agree with us.

  255. jim says:

    taz you wont sneak this bill in undetected by the majority like has happened elsewhere.

  256. jim says:

    Excellent points Chad. You get your points across just fine bro.

  257. Protect Montana says:

    Taz, I cannot recall anyone saying that a foothold trap does not cause pain. You are doing it again. Why do you continue to attempt to put words in peoples mouths. And to put trappers in the same class as Michael Vick is grossly your style. You try so hard to slander trapping and you go way out of your way to try and get it done. And yes I think that we have slightly wandered off the trail, but it just feels good to stretch your mind once in a while. I see no wronge that has been done nor said.

    Paitiently awaiting more slander and insults.

    Protect Montana

  258. jim says:

    Things seem to be heating up a bit, the warmth feels good.

  259. Greg says:

    PLEASED TO MEET YOU, HAVE YOU GUESSED MY NAME……….

  260. jim says:

    I have a little plan up my sleeve that Im sure will put taz and the likes into a wee bit of a tail spin. I must speak with a legal adviser first. I can hardly wait. Serves them right all things considered. Their approach was retched.

  261. jim says:

    I think I know, but don’t feel at liberty to say my friend.

  262. Protect Montana says:

    If you take a look around you and see the beginnings of the trouble. That is if you are intelligent enough to be able to see it then you would be concerned for everything that this country was supposed to be. But like has been said before, you will not see it till it comes down on you like a storm in the night. And at that time it will be to late, you will be nothing but a mark in history. And don’t bet that your name will make it on the pages of the new history text book. The world is shaking my friends, and she is talking. We are the new Rome.

    Minds are wasting
    Time is draining
    Run little piggy
    For the wolf is at the door….

    Protect Montana

  263. Michael says:

    Greg,

    I am not going to debate whether Idaho Fish and Game is lying about elk numbers. By the way, on their website they claim 20040 elk were killed by hunters in 2006, which is the third biggest harvest since 1995.

    But, I have noticed when I commented on the IFG on a post on 2-28-08, that Jim bashed me for saying that a warden possibly had misinformed me and didn’t understand his own departments regulations. Then you say the IFG is lying about elk numbers and nobody from the trapper side takes you to task, including Jim. Is there a double standard here? By the way, I am not saying you are wrong, just “what is good for the goose, is good for the gander.”

  264. Michael says:

    PM,

    Where did you get the idea I thought ranchers were the “lower class?” I don’t believe I ever said anything of the sort. Do I need to say it again? Some ranchers are outdoors knowledgeable and some aren’t. I said that in response to trappers comments on this site implying that people opposed to trapping were all a bunch of city-slickers who knew nothing of the outdoors and nature. Again, there are always exceptions concerning ranchers and urban folk, neither of which am I.

  265. Michael says:

    Vanessa,
    You obviously have a problem with comprehension, and you read a lot into something that is not there in my comment about ranchers. When I talk about outdoors, I refer to knowledge of the backcountry, not driving around the back forty. In that context, just being outside does not made anyone an outdoorsman. If it did, a telephone linesman, working outdoors, would meet your definition of outdoorsman.

    You made a comment about my “wealthy right” to go into the mountains. First of all, wilderness trips can be very inexpensive. It doesn’t take much money to drive to a trailhead. You act like the wilderness is a four-star hotel. Backpacking is pretty cheap. You don’t even need expensive gear, just a willingness to get off your posterior and go.

    You made the conclusion that I am wealthy and sit around watching cable and DVDs, and that doesn’t give me any knowledge of the wilderness. Well Vanessa, I’ve gained my experience by getting out there. I’ve been a ski patrolman, river guide, hunter, hiker, and backpacker. I have spent a couple thousand days in the Selway-Bitterroot and Frank Church Wildernesses in Idaho.

    As far as my profession, I am not one of the upper elite as you assume. I consider myself middle class. I worked my way through college: washing dishes, working at hamburger stands, pizza parlors, and car washes. Then I taught grade school for 26 years. Currently, in my second career, I work in a county sheriff’s office.

    Before you go on a tirade, maybe you should ask a few questions. You are clearly an unhappy person. Perhaps if you took off on some of your weekends and took a hike, it would clear your head of all your resentments.

  266. Taz Alago says:

    PM -

    I’m glad you’re stretching your mind. It can’t do you any harm. Here’s the quote from Chad, “i would like one of you to prove to me
    how much pain, medical proof, a animal goes threw when in a trap.”

  267. Vanessa says:

    Michael
    Such the hypocrite aren’t you? Pointing blame and accusations on my opinion and not bothering to do the very thing you so graciously asked me to do. I have a problem with comprehension and I read into a lot that isn’t there??? Let’s see Mikey, your exact words were “ I’ve also noticed that some people on this site seem to think that hanging out on a ranch makes them an outdoors man. I’ve got relatives who run cattle near Leadore, and they haven’t a clue about the wilderness or surviving in it.”
    To me it implies that good, hard working ranchers have no clue about the outdoors and they wouldn’t know the difference between a cow and an elk. What would a fast food employee/ school teacher/ sheriff employee know about ranching in the mountains? What do YOU mean by that statement? You leave the door wide open, so if you don’t want any one to assume something don’t be so vague. An educated person would consider the fact that there are many unfortunate people living in the backwoods surviving on their traps. A person of wealth, being middle class or higher, would /should be considerate of the less fortunate and not try to destroy their way of survival. You make a living and live nicely and they make a living and live nicely with what they have. If you want me or any one else to believe you are not on of the “UPPER ELITE” prove it. Because right now every comment you have on trappers are of the same view point that your society holds. Where did I come up with that? Let’s see…. Oh right here Mikey “Although trapping is currently legal in Montana and Idaho, society in general will decide if it will stay so,”
    What exactly are you saying in that statement??? Oh, please elaborate for us. I’m not a second rate citizen and I don’t hate people much like you all do. I consider all the facts that goes into surviving in this F*uped world and I do not fall to my knees just because society told me to do so. You can try to pull me down, but I guarantee you it won’t fall. Rude remarks towards my comprehension will not make me cry, it only makes me realize how right I am about you. I have no resentments in my life and the wilderness is right in my back yard. So before you go off on YOUR TIRADE, ask YOURSELF some questions. You don’t want me to assume anything, well be upfront and don’t comment on something and leave holes in its entirety.

  268. Vanessa says:

    Hey TAZ why not you? You seem to know SO much on the subject! Please enlighten us with your finding TAz !

  269. chad says:

    Taz if all you have on this is to simply mock me than I and
    no one else should even read your post. School teacher? poor kids.
    I was simply asking about it and stating one of my own personal experiences. I am not a mean or rude person but this time I say go crawl in a hole.

  270. Michael says:

    Vanessa,

    How can you accuse someone of being rude when you are the epitome of it yourself. Sort of like the “pot calling the kettle black.” Would you prefer I call you “Nessie?” I think if anyone read your 3-11-08 post to me, they would find it rather harsh. Anyway, I am getting tired of the “rancher” issue, but if you read my further comments regarding it you would have known what I meant about it, since I’ve clarified it several times. You just seem to want to keep beating that “dead horse.”

    My statement about my various employments were there to illustrate that I am not a “trustfunder” or one of the wealthy elite, as I would venture you aren’t either, although I can’t recall you ever mentioning your profession. By the way, what is it? (so I won’t draw conclusions).

    “My society?” “…society in general…?? How do you equate society in general with the rich elites that you so obviously despise? To me, society in general is the average middle class. It’s not the rich or elite.

    As far as resentments, you seem to resent my outdoor trips, or at least your previous comments indicated that to me, and you appear to resent rich people. If I’m wrong, you can let me know.

    Finally, as far as “backwoods” people making money from trapping, no one is ENTITLED to wildlife that are present in a state for their financial gain. In the same way that people are not allowed to kill elk out of season, even if they need the meat. In Montana and Idaho, wildlife are the property of the state, and as thus, all residents have a rightful say in their management.

  271. Protect Montana says:

    I believe that what can be said between both sides has been said here. I tried to walk away once before and was asked to return and did so. But this is the end of this sight for PM.
    I would like to send everyone a kind goodby and a thought for a better Montana. I feel that my time is better spent doing what Protect Montana has set out to do and would be better kept on track elsewere. We at Protect Montana appreciate all of the support and hope that it is not the last time that we talk. You have all been a light in the dark for us and we hope that we have served you here as well as you have served us.

    Thank you all so much. You know were to find us.

    Protect Montana

    One more thing.
    Troubled times bring troubled minds.
    Trust in your government, and believe in your military.
    And if you are smart enough to vote, then trust in yourself. Remember, you do get the government that you ask for.
    Do not let the pain of reality take you down, let it make you stronger.
    And when your enemy bashes your name just smile and thank them. Those words hold no power.

  272. Vanessa says:

    Taz
    Chad said it best you blind fool.

  273. Protect Montana says:

    I would like to thank all of you who have supported Protect Montana. I believe that anything that could be said between the two sides here has been said, and there for I bid you a fond farewell. It is time to let it rest here and carry on with what we are trying to accomplish. Once again we thank all of our supporters and we hope that you will join us on our page to get on with buisness.

    Calm
    Trust in your government, and in your fellow American.
    Support our soldiers, and what they do for us.
    Don’t make them suffer for an indifference that you might feel toward the war. They are our sons and daughters.
    Believe in your Constitution, and protect it by exorcising the rights that it gives to you. Vote! Vote! Vote!
    And smile at your enemy when he spits venom at you, he is already scared you don’t have to spit back.

    Thank you all, you know were to find us.

    Protect Montana

  274. chad says:

    those fires in wasington that the actvist are starting are killing more animals and causing more animal suffering than all the trapps
    in all the mountains will ever come close to. if you want to fight animal suffering you had better start there.

  275. Protect Montana says:

    I have tried twice to say goodby here and both times what I wrote was erased, I cannot write any more you know were to find us.

    Protect Montana

  276. Greg says:

    My philosphy handed down to me from my teachers is simple, animal life is an important and substantial source of food for survival. I need no profit of man made money. I want the hunting and trapping experiance. But the hunting and trapping of animals for food and for other needs, such as clothing and tools, requires a great deal of prowess and patience. One must be trained to be a good hunter and trapper, I was, and have trained some folks myself. And one must observe a certain code of conduct during that training. All life from a tiny insect to a hot-tempered moose, has a sacred right to fulfill the measure of its creation, and in no way does this require that a beast become sport for man. Hunting for existence is a different proposition alltogether and reflects a more serious and mature relationship with nature. Hunger is humbling, and killing creates a void on earth that is justified not by the desire for a shelf laden with trophies but rather by sincere need. I take what I need for myself and one other, I use every thing. Michael and Taz, let us fly into the Yukon and get out with nothing, in one week you will be eating what ever I drum up and you will thank me and be grateful. I do not know why people like you whom think you understand people like me willfully desire to destroy my lifes work and ancient knowledge which once was the pride of every American family, including no doubt your ancestors of your bloodlines. I do not catch colds or flu bugs, I do not eat much from a grocery store, except raw greens in winter, everything that walks or crawls around here I have eaton and used for other purposes. I build herbal tinctures and flush my body of toxins, and do fasts, I use the old sweat lodge my friends in South Dakota taught me to make and use. The Lakota are good people and teachers if you listen to them. I find the words of Taz filled with anger and spite. A couple months living like a dog like me in the Wilderness would cure this man of his anger and false self rightousness, but he will not change his way of thoughts as his pride is in the way. this is sad. So go to your lawmakers and kill a heritage and ancient way of living with your lies and hatred for nothing else can soften your bitterness and anger towards a real earth folk whom you despise. I shall keep doing what I have always done, even as you walk past me in the forest you will not see me, because you never do see me, and you do not hear me now.

    Peace.

  277. Michael says:

    For some reason, this computer shows a number of messages this evening, but many will not come up after my last posting from this afternoon to Vanessa.

    I did read Protect Montana’s last message that he is retiring from this site. I have to agree with PM that everything that can be said regarding trapping from both sides has been said. The site is now spinning off into different directions that are getting way off target, in my opinion. Anyway, I also do not feel that there is any purpose in me staying on. Like PM, I have other things to attend to, and better uses for my time. I did, however, get many insights into the thinking of the trapping community. Best to know and understand your adversaries.

    I want to say that I enjoyed some of the early debate, especially with PM when things were more polite. Clearly, there was never any compromise. We all have our strong feelings based on our life’s experience. I did get a comment from someone that if we were placed out in the Yukon, I’d probably starve. Well, I am pretty handy with a firearm, and I do know how to fish. Well, I am going up to paddle the Noatak in Alaska next year for several weeks. Maybe I’ll find out.

    Goodbye,
    Michael

  278. Michael says:

    Well, I too, like PM, have tried to send off from this site. Since my last posting this afternoon, I have not been able to receive comments, even though my computer notified me that they are there.

    I agree with PM that nothing more can be said from either side. I know we will never agree, due to our different life experiences.I did enjoy the earlier, more polite debates with PM. I did learn a lot about the mindset and ideas of trappers. Best to know your adversaries, right?

    Someone commented that if I was dropped off in the Yukon, that I’d starve. Well, I’m pretty handy with a firearm, I have hunted in the past, and I know how to fish. Anyway, next year I’m going on a several week paddle of Alaska’s Noatak. Maybe I’ll find out.

    Goodbye,
    Michael

  279. Coyote says:

    Orca,
    I’d imagine that Footloose keeps track of this thread and the unbelievable statements and unsupported judgements made by some of you people… Why is it that trappers and those who support trapping are so underlying aggressive, blatantly ignorant and grossly judgemental?
    Hey Vanessa, since you defend those poor trappers that just try to make a living, tell me, what’s the percentage of MT’s trappers who have to let animals suffer in traps to make a living?

  280. Greg says:

    If this economy keeps up this downward slide we all might be wondering how too make a living. Michael on your Yukon trip hope it is great, I would go with a bow and quiver of arrows, a bow drill and good knife myself. Dont need the guides or the fire arm. Obviously taz has blocked several posters including me, so I will say good day, Taz I recomend Gerry Spences book, how too argue and win every time too you, Then perhaps you could debate and not run away and hide behind the delete your oppostion button. Greg.

  281. Michael says:

    Greg,
    Thank you for the send off. I checked this morning before I click “stop receiving notifications” because my computer won’t show any messages since yesterday, and I wasn’t sure any of my messages trying to leave got through. Since you saw one of them, at least one did. So, now I can log off for good. But, on my Alaska trip, I will take a firearm and a good knife (I prefer Bob Dozier’s out of Arkansas – he’s on the web), but no bow and arrows. There won’t be any guide though, just my wife and I.

  282. ??? says:

    Can anyone get their post to go through on here?

  283. tsurface says:

    i’ve had my hand in more traps than i can count on all fingers and toes. and let me tell you, it wont damage any bones, or break any skin. yes, humans are preditors. if nothing killed, than we couldnt live. there cannot be life without death. if any of you havent lived off the death of another, than you couldnt possobly live. you cant survive without somthing dieing to support you. processed cows live through more suffering throughout there whole life than any animal have caught in a trap. i’ve never heard of a trapper leaving there traps unchecked for more than two days. regarding dogs being caught in traps, its easy to get them out and if i recall its against the law to have your dog off its leash. the dog wont be scarred for life, emotionally or physically. it wont be scarred at all.

    As far as preditor control goes, yes we are controlling preditors. if we stop controlling population for two winters on bobcat, than they will run out of there food supply of mostly rabbits, and come into the valleys and start attaking the chickens and rabbits that people own. ive seen this happen on numerous occasions and i am starting to see it happen again with the re-entry of wolves into oregon. soon they’ll kill all the livestock. but it wont only effect the ranching and farming community, but it will also start to effect you city people as well. you wont have any meat into the citys, because if you havent realized, all of your products come from us in the country. youve brought that on yourself. once the food supply is gone the next winter, they will starve to death. and that is because we cannot control there population. it will be a wasted effort that will leave the northwest in a terrible condition.

    as far as prices go, we cant possobly live on those prices they make. so why would we trap for money. yes, i’ll admit prices were high this year. but that is because we trap up in the mountains and it was a deep snow, freezing winter this year, so there wasnt alot of people who were able to trap this year. that caused a shortage of furs this year which pushed prices up. it had nothing to do with low population. i saw more tracks this year in the mountains than i’ve seen in more than five years. but the cold pushed alot of them down into the valleys this year, and our small livestock was greatly damaged.

    so to say that trappers are greedy, uneducated, lazy, cruel people is wholy untrue.

    i can understand why you might think trapping is wrong, but you havent seen what population control has done for us. population control is the reason that humans are still alive today.

  284. jim says:

    I see a bunch of this blog has been deleted. I don’t blame you ,the evidence to support trapping became quite overwhelming.

  285. Patriot says:

    What other kind of comment would one expect. This is the same cast of characters that would qualify for another Deliverance movie. “Squeal like a pig” as he said through his toothless mouth.

  286. John says:

    Isn’t “educated hick” an oxymoron?
    There are a lot of ignorant people chasing animals around the countryside. Trapping is ridiculous. Get over yourselves you Daniel Boone nuts. This is 2008.

  287. MT Goose Hunter says:

    I have a few facts to share regarding trapping:

    Trappers are not “parasites” as previously stated. Trappers contribute to wildlife habitat and conservation through the purchase of their conservation license (in MT) and through their general trapping license. These funds are used by MFWP to acquire critical wildlife habitat and fund furbearer track surveys, radio tracking, and furbearer management. Trappers also provide their animal harvest numbers, through which biologists can determine general population trends. Also, many trappers are involved in local conservation groups as well. I am a trapper, and member of the local Montana Wildlife Federation chapter (acquires habitat and land and promotes wildlife conservation), trout unlimited, ducks unlimited, and rocky mountain elk foundation. Obviously I care about wildlife and conservation of natural resources. I know many other trappers who are similarily involved.

    Additionally, people who don’t follow trapping regulations are NOT trappers, they are POACHERS! These people are not representative of the average legal and responsible trapper.

    Most trapping is no more cruel than the natural world. The conibear traps I use for pine marten kill in minutes. A beaver in a drowning set will die in minutes. In most forms of regulated, responsible trapping,there is minimal suffering and pain to the animal. The trapper’s objective is to ensure a quick, clean kill-this keeps the pelt undamaged and minimizes suffering.

  288. MT Goose Hunter says:

    Trapping is ARGUABLY a form of hunting because the definition of hunting is “the pursuit or search for game” Therefore, it makes no sense when hunters claim to be opposed to trapping. Trapping, hunting, and fishing are one and the same. Is trying to bring in a fox to a trap with lure any different than rattling in a whitetail buck? The only difference is the means of kill.

  289. MT Goose Hunter says:

    I have a few facts to share regarding trapping:

    Trappers are not “parasites” as previously stated. Trappers contribute to wildlife management and habitat through the purchase of their mandatory Conservation License (MT) and through their purchase of the General Trapping License. These funds are used by FWP and other wildlife agencies to acquire critical wildlife habitat and fund furbearer track surveys and radio tracking. Trappers also promote furbearer management by providing their harvest numbers to FWP so management decisions and population trends can be calculated. Additionally, most trappers are involved in conservation and sporting groups. I am a trapper, and I am a member of the local Montana Wildlife Federation chapter (works on habitat acquisition and conservation of wildlife), Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Obviously I, as a trapper, contribute greatly to wildlife management and conservation through these organizations.

    Most legal and responsible trapping does not cause undue suffering or pain to the target animal. The conibear traps I use for pine marten kill in minutes. A beaver in a drowning set will die in minutes. In most forms of trapping, there is minimal suffering of the animal. Also, the trapper’s objective is to insure a quick, clean kill because this keeps the pelt undamaged and the trap set reusable.

    Trapping is ARGUABLY a form of hunting. Hunting is defined in Hunter Education courses as “the pursuit or search for game”. The trapper is most definitely “pursuing game” with his traps. Therefore, it makes no sense when hunters claim they are opposed to trapping. Trapping, fishing, and hunting are one and the same. Is trying to bring in a fox to a set with lure any different than trying to entice a whitetail buck to you by rattling? The only difference is the means of kill.

    Trappers are no different than loggers or miners because these activities utilize public RENEWABLE resources to make a profit. How is selling an animal pelt any different than cutting some trees for lumber? Harvest of these resources is and should be permitted as long as the harvest is sustainable.

  290. MT Goose Hunter says:

    I have a few facts to share regarding trapping:

    Trappers are not “parasites” as previously stated. Trappers contribute to wildlife management and habitat through the purchase of their mandatory Conservation License (MT) and through their purchase of the General Trapping License. These funds are used by FWP and other wildlife agencies to acquire critical wildlife habitat and fund furbearer track surveys and radio tracking. Trappers also promote furbearer management by providing their harvest numbers to FWP so mangement decisions and population trends can be made. Additionally, most trappers are involved in conservation and sporting groups. I am a trapper, and I am a member of the local Montana Wildlife Federation chapter (works on habitat acquisition and conservation of wildlife), Trout Unlimited, Ducks Unlimited, and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation. Obviously I, as a trapper, contribute greatly to wildlife management and conservation through these organizations.

    Most legal and responsible trapping does not cause undue suffering or pain to the target animal. The conibear traps I use for pine marten kill in minutes. A beaver in a drowning set will die in minutes. In most forms of trapping, there is minimal suffering of the animal. Also, the trapper’s objective is to insure a quick, clean kill because this keeps the pelt undamaged and the trap set reusable.

    Trapping is ARGUABLY a form of hunting. Hunting is defined in Hunter Education courses as “the pursuit or search for game”. The trapper is most definitely “pursuing game” with his traps. Therefore, it makes no sense when hunters claim they are opposed to trapping. Trapping, fishing, and hunting are one and the same. Is trying to bring in a fox to a set with lure any different than trying to entice a whitetail buck to you by rattling? The only difference is the means of kill.

    Trappers are no different than loggers or miners bcause these avtivities utilize public RENEWABLE resources to make a profit. How is selling an animal pelt any different than cutting some trees for lumber? Harvest of these resources is and should be permitted as long as the harvest is sustainable.

  291. Justin Pettersen says:

    I work and play in these drainages year round and in the last two decades have seen little or no sign of the species mentioned. Ocassional scat or a couple of tracks, not much else. I for one, would love nothing more than to stick his foot in one of those traps. All I can do is pray karma gets him….or hell.

  292. Wanda Perry says:

    I am from a family of hunters, and none of them ever felt good about killing animals. They were always thankful for the winter food.

  293. Randy says:

    Trapping is the most unsportsmanlike type of hunting there is and consider individuals who do this the same as indiscriminate gill fisherman. The Vietcong did the same thing to our military in SE Asia with inhumane traps. If you hunt, do it in a fair manner giving the prey and equal chance at survival.